REPLAY: Is Veganism Privileged?

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to the Deficient Vegans Podcast, episode 62. I'm the muscle deficient vegan here with the protein deficient vegan. Do you want to

Replay Introduction

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say hi?

unknown 0:06

Hi.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Hi, everybody. So this week we are still on our break, so we'll have another replay of uh one of our most popular episodes, which was episode 48, I believe, is veganism privileged. And then next week we'll be back with new topics. So this week we're going to talk about the veganism is privilege argument. There are a lot of good points to cover here. We want to make sure that we do it justice because there are some valid concerns. So we'll go through it in detail and talk about it. The bottom line is the cheapest thousand calories that you can buy in almost every country on earth are plant-based. So what's actually going on with this privileged argument? All right. So let's get into the main segment here talking about is veganism privileged? So there are five general arguments that coalesce around this topic.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah. That we've seen, because we're on social media a lot, we're in Reddit a lot.

SPEAKER_04 0:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

These are the things that we've seen. There are probably others too, but these seem to be the top hitters that I'm seeing a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Yeah. And I've heard some of these in person too. Like nobody was really like, I am making this argument. But like the things they say all tend to fall into these categories.

Cost of Vegan Eating

SPEAKER_01 1:09

What comes up.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Right. So the five are cost, just vegan food is more expensive, is the argument. Access, where it's like fresh produce isn't available in food deserts, rural areas, or low-income neighborhoods. There's also time or labor, so cooking from scratch requires a kitchen, equipment, energy, and knowledge about making the food. And a culture is another big one. The argument is that veganism is like a Western, white colonial framework imposed on cultures that traditionally have animal-based food ways. And then the last one we're going to talk about is just the nutritional concerns. So people say like you have to know a lot about nutrition. You have to basically be a dietitian to make it through a vegan diet healthily. So that's one of the arguments there. So there are definitely some valid points in these arguments, but most of them shouldn't prevent you from trying to adopt a more vegan diet.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah. I mean, there are definitely some cases in which maybe your life would be at risk if you were trying to do a plant-based diet for various reasons.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

But I think broadly, there are things everyone can do to lean more towards plant-based.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Yeah, for sure. Uh so let's kind of dive into each of these categories individually. So the first one we're going to talk about is cost. So the cost of a vegan diet. So some of the good points that have been made are like beyond burgers, oat milk, vegan cheese, specialty protein powders, a lot of specialty vegan products, those things can be pretty expensive.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah. I mean, especially if you're comparing like liquid just egg, if you directly compare that to like a dozen chicken eggs. Or if you compare like beyond ground beef with regular ground beef, like those things are going to be more expensive, usually because they're smaller companies, but also because meat and dairy products get subsidies from the government that make the cost lower than they really should be.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Yeah, definitely. So if your like mental image of veganism is a cart full of Trader Joe's specialty products and like small company products, then yeah, it probably does seem pretty expensive. And that probably would be pretty expensive.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yes. If you are buying like six vegan cheeses from Rebel Cheese every week, yeah, that's a hundred bucks. That's gonna be pricey.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Right. And then, you know, not just the cost of the food, but also kitchen equipment is pretty expensive and you might need a little more for a vegan diet. And then, you know, depending on your housing situation, you might not have a kitchen at all if you're like maybe a college student or some other housing situations. Or if you do have a kitchen, maybe it's like really small, not very well equipped, your stove sucks, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Right. And like, so if you were on an omnivore diet, maybe you'd be eating out a lot more, like fast food restaurants where the price point is a little bit lower, but like maybe a lot of those restaurants don't offer a plant-based option.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Or maybe a lot of the vegan recipes will use like blenders that can be kind of expensive to get a good one.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Yeah, blenders, especially if you're trying to blend things like the nuts and stuff with the cashews. Really the stronger blenders help, and the stronger blenders are significantly more expensive. So you might not be able to make you might have you're trying to make queso with your cheaper blender, and it's like, oh, this is kind of shitty.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

So like think if you were making Alfredo sauce on an omnivore diet, like you don't need a blender. But like if you're trying to make a good Alfredo sauce on a vegan diet, you might need a good blender.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Right. Yeah, things like that do factor into the cost. So they're valid arguments. But let's talk about some of the data around the cost of

Whole Foods Save Money

SPEAKER_04 4:17

a vegan type diet. So there was a 2025 narrative review that looked at 25 years of global cost data. So this is not US specific or anything. You know, we we do tend to talk mostly about US things because that's where we are. But uh, you know, a lot of this conversation is also going to extend beyond that. So this was looking at global cost data, and it found that whole food plant-based diets, which is basically a vegan diet that is mostly whole food, right? So uh not like packaged processed products. A lot of times whole food plant-based is also no oil, no salts, anything like that. Um, but it found that whole food plant-based diets are generally associated with spending less on food than omnivorous diets, which is a non-vegan diet, across a wide geographic range. So all across the globe, basically. Uh the spending on legumes, grains, and produce, which are kind of the staples of a real whole food vegan diet, was more than offset by removing expensive animal products, mostly meat.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah. I think this one is interesting because I think a lot of omnivores don't really understand what a vegan would eat. So I think they're always thinking like you're only eating fruits and vegetables. Right. Which when you look at the price tag of fruits and vegetables, like if I needed to eat 2,000 calories of just fruits and vegetables, like that would be really expensive.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Especially if you're trying to get fruits out of season or you don't like really have a fresh market really close to you.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

But like most of our calories aren't coming from fruits and vegetables. They're coming from like beans and tofu and like lentils and other stuff like that. So that's often overlooked by like omnivores hypothesizing on what a vegan diet might look like.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Yeah, definitely. Uh there was also another 2024 analysis that found that a low-fat vegan diet cut daily food costs by about 19% versus the standard American diet. And standard American diet is kind of the typical medical terminology for what most Americans eat.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Um, that was mostly also driven by the savings on meat. Turns out meat's pretty expensive.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So yeah, especially when you compare it to like beans and lentils.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Yeah. And then there was another trial in 2024 specifically for type two diabetics that found that a whole food plant-based diet ran about $9.78 a day compared to $15.72 a day for a comparable omnivorous diet.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Aaron Powell That's a pretty significant difference.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That's like almost 30% drop.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Aaron Powell And it's actually getting worse because uh inflation data is showing that meat, poultry, fish, and eggs are the food category that has the fastest growing inflation rate. It's up 36.4% since 2020. So every year, basically, a non-vegan diet gets more expensive compared to the Whole Foods vegan diet.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Aaron Powell That kind of makes sense with population growth, too. Like there's only so much land we have to grow or to like raise meat for consumption because it takes a lot of crops and a lot of land for just the animals.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Yeah. And we've seen a lot of this recently. There was an egg shortage that kind of caused a little bit of an artificial inflation earlier this year. Just egg kind of came in and they sold a lot of plant-based egg substitutes. Even with that, the price of eggs is still up over where it was a couple of years ago. So more people look towards those plant-based egg alternatives. But that said, once you start to factor in like a lot of processed vegan foods, the products from the small companies like we were talking about, some of those plant-based meat alternatives, that does make a vegan diet more expensive than an omnivorous diet.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah. I mean, if you are like truly following like a whole food plant-based diet where you're buying like grains and legumes, nuts, seeds, like fresh produce versus like pre-packaged stuff, it's obviously going to be cheaper. But that's true with an omnivore diet too, right? Like less packaged foods, like less processed foods, if you're doing that on an omnivore diet, it's obviously going to be cheaper than buying a bunch of pre-packaged frozen foods in an omnivore section, too.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Yeah. The frozen convenience foods are for any type of diet, really, are

Budget Vegan Strategies

SPEAKER_04 8:05

the most expensive typically.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

All right.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

So now, what are some ways you can manage the cost of going more towards a vegan diet? Frozen vegetables are a big one. They're nutritionally equivalent or sometimes even superior to fresh vegetables. Um, and they're dramatically cheaper per serving. And then you can also look at canned vegetables. That could be an option as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. And I guess the good thing about that is with canned, you don't have to eat it right away either because it's shell stable.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

So, like, let's say you're in a cost situation where you're limited in fridge or maybe you don't even have a freezer, you know, like maybe you're like in a small apartment and you have kind of one of those mini fridge situations. Without a freezer, you could go with canned.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And uh, you know, if you do have a freezer, that can be a good option if you only go to the grocery store every once in a while, something like that. You know, a lot of the time the an issue people have with vegetables and produce is you buy it, you kind of don't use it for a few days, and then it's like, you know, rotten or you're molding or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So then you can't really justify the cost of buying fresh because you don't really know how long you're gonna have with it.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Right. So frozen is a great option. Um, another one is kind of the bulk grain staples like oats, brown rice, bulgur, barley, and whole wheat flour.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, and if so, you can buy them obviously like packaged, yeah, but a lot of stores will have um like the containers that you can weigh out your own.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

And those will be cheaper because they don't have like brand names on them and stuff. You know, they're just like a bulk item.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

Yeah, and they're shelf-stable, they last a long time, so you can stock up on it really.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I think that also helps if you you have like limited fridge freezer space.

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um also I would definitely just like skip the alternative meat aisle if you're trying to constrain the budget for your your vegan spending, because those are going to be very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Definitely. And the other thing is, you know, a lot of those meats are based on like a kind of a satan structure. So you could make your own satan. Yeah. And that's really cheap.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Get some vital weak gluten, make your own. And then for protein, you know, we're talking about skipping the alternative meat aisle, so you might be like, okay, protein. So some of the cheapest protein staples globally are vegan sources, uh, dried lentils, dried split peas, dried chickpeas, dried black beans, oats, peanut butter, tofu in the places where it's available, which is most places, but not all places. Um, TVP and vital wheat gluten, like we just mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah. And then I think if one of your cost constraints is like having a functional kitchen and specific kitchen equipment, there are actually a lot of resources for like making, you know, cheap vegan meals without a lot of kitchen equipment. But you could rely on things like canned beans.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

We can also do some stuff like sandwiches or maybe even overnight oats, because you can get like a mini fridge, you have some milk, you have some oats that are on the shelf. Basically just put those in a jar overnight in the fridge. And you can even, if you have the fridge, you could throw some berries and stuff in there. So that's a pretty good option.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, one of my favorite meals we've been making a lot in the last couple months is like we call it a bean bowl, but it's literally just like um black bean seasoned with taco seasoning and nutritional yeast. That's like very cheap. You know, you just stir it up and microwave it.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Also, if you can get access to a kitchen like one day a week or something, you could go make uh big pot of chili and that'll last you several days. Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Maybe meal prep.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Some options.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

You know, like if you're living in a college dorm or something, very cheap. Yeah. So yeah, there's like lots of recipes that don't necessarily use like expensive kitchen equipment that you can find. And then I think for the piece about eating out, because eating out can be more expensive.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Um, just because a lot of restaurants don't really have plant-based options. But what I will say is Taco Bell kind of comes in clutch here.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Because like it's just as cheap as the omnivore version, and you can almost like veganize most things on the menu without really a lot of additional cost.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Yeah, and it's mostly, you know, if you get the like the fresca style with beans, it's mostly whole food. I mean the f the tortilla is obviously a little processed, but um, you could even just get like a bean bowl with a bunch of veggies on it, basically.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah. Like um, they're really good about re-fried beans, they've got black beans, uh seasoned like potatoes, rice you can add on. So like a lot of um higher calorie ingredients that'll keep you full too.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

All right. So I think that pretty much covers kind of the cost category and hopefully showing some of the data there. Uh this one in particular is kind of interesting because like the cost argument is mostly just really not true unless you're really focusing on specialty ingredients or alternative meats. I think it's good to see some data that like specifically has compared in these studies, the the vegan type diet to an omnivorous diet. And it's like basically every time they look at it, a whole food plant-based diet is significantly cheaper than a non-vegan diet.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah, I think a lot of the confusion just comes from like the only products that an omnivore is seeing pushed are like you're beyond and you're impossible, or like fake cheeses and stuff. And it's like when they go to the grocery store, those are the only ingredients they're seeing, you know, because they don't know how to make like whole meals with TVP or vital weak lutin. They don't really understand those as an omnivore. Most most omnivores, I'm not saying all omnivores, yeah, but like most omnivores, when you're going to the grocery store and you're like, what are vegans eating? You know, you're gonna be in the dairy aisle and you're gonna look at like the dairy shredded cheese and you're gonna look at the vegan shredded cheese, and you're gonna see that the vegan shredded cheese is maybe two dollars more for the same amount.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

And you're gonna be like, wow, that's really expensive. Or you look at the vegan sour cream versus the omnivore sour cream, and it's gonna be more because they're smaller companies.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Or like you're going to the frozen food section and you're looking at the vegan meats, and they're obviously gonna be more expensive than real meat because it's a smaller company and the subsidies we talked about. But like I think what's usually being missed is like in the aisle with the gluten-free flour options is vital wheat gluten, which is super freaking cheap. And you can make your own satan at home or TVP, which is pretty cheap, that you can use as a protein source as well. So I think those are the things that are being overlooked, and they're also not looking at like the beans and lentils, like those things are so cheap.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yeah. Beans are beans and lentils are huge. They're, I mean, some of the cheapest foods that exist, basically. And you know, it's nothing really vegan specific about beans. I don't care if you're a vegan or not. You've eaten beans a lot in your life, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

So and they're cheap. And I think the other piece is if you say, like, well, don't buy the meat and dairy alternatives, I think they immediately go to, okay, so my entire diet is just fruits and vegetables. Holy crap, if I eat 2,000 calories of fruits and vegetables every day, that's gonna be expensive.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

And yeah, that would be expensive, but that's not what most vegans are doing.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

So I think I think the cost argument comes down more to like the vast majority of omnivores really not understanding what vegans eat.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yeah. No, that's what it is. Like they and I didn't either. Like, obviously, before I was a vegan, I had kind of these same ideas. I was like, I had to buy fresh fruit and vegetables all the time. I had to do like the impossible was just to come out at some point. But yeah, I I never really thought of a vegan diet until I started watching like forks over eyes and stuff and saw like the whole food plant-based diet. And then that was when it really clicked for me. I was like, oh wait, this stuff is like dirt cheap.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Oh, yeah. Even as a vegetarian, I wasn't really sure like what I would be eating as a vegan.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I will say, I think this is why social media is really helpful. Like, I think social media is educating a lot of omnivores on what vegans eat because vegans are posting their food pictures. Like, even if you have a smaller account and you think no one's seeing it, like people are seeing it on their for you page and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

They're seeing what you're eating. Like, that does help educate the public on what do

Food Access Barriers

SPEAKER_01 15:23

vegans eat.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

So let's move next into talking about the access argument. And this is mostly about like access to the optimal foods.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah. I actually think this, in my opinion, is one of the strongest arguments against.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Right. So um, a lot of people live in what is kind of commonly referred to as a food desert. That terminology's technically been replaced, at least in America. Uh, now they call it like low income and low access.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Um, and this is, you know, a real situation. Millions of Americans live in basically these food deserts. And that's defined by the USDA as an area where a significant number of people have limited access to a grocery store. And the limited access um threshold is basically if you're in an urban area, it's more than um sometimes half a mile away, and then they also track a mile away. And then for a rural area, like out in the country or whatever, they define it as a grocery store more than 10 miles away.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

And you might be thinking like in an urban area, it could be a food desert, even if it's just a little over a half of a mile away for a grocery store.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

But you have to be thinking like a lot of people that live in urban areas maybe don't have cars.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Yeah, exactly. And you know, they have to get on public transportation to go to the grocery store. You can't really carry a whole bunch of groceries back on a bus. So there's a lot of stuff like that that factors into what makes this low access. And they're all really valid.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah. And you might not really think about them if if you have a car and you can just kind of drive to the grocery store and that's not a problem for you, but there are real concerns here.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

Yeah. There are millions of people who basically have to rely on public transportation to get where they're going. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Or walk even, you know.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Yeah. Um, also fresh produce in remote areas is like genuinely more expensive, you know, off-season produce, uh, fresh produce in somewhere that's not near farms that grow it. That stuff just gets more expensive the further away you get from the source.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

In these food deserts, where you do typically get a lot of your food, are convenience store type options or like corner stores. And those stores mostly stock like cheap, calorie-dense, animal product heavy options.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah. Think even just like the convenience store that's attached to a gas station. Right. Like the kinds of things you might see inside of a gas station store.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

Yeah, you're not going into the gas station and buying uh your bulk beans and grains. Right, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

They might have like some of that stuff, but they don't usually have a very good variety.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

Right. And you know, for the people who live in these areas, a large portion of their food comes from places like that. So they maybe they only go to the grocery store like once every two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah, or maybe fast food restaurants.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

They might have access to those and eating from those.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

They're putting those in locations specifically to cater to people that are in low access environments so they can you know basically sell them food. And then also people who are in a houseless situation, if they're getting food from like pantries, churches, things like that. I mean, a lot of the time you just you have to eat what's available to you to survive and you don't really get options. Oh, yeah. Uh and you know, uh there's a little bit of philosophy there, but you you definitely can't eat strictly a vegan diet in a lot of those cases because a lot of your choices have been taken away.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

And you don't know when your me next meal is coming or what it's going to be.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

You're not really in a situation where you can choose.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

And I think that holds true even if you're not houseless, but you're like very low income where maybe you're on government uh programs.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Or you are shopping at like a food pantry. Um, yeah, you just might not have a lot of choices there that you can make.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Or if you're in a situation, like you're elderly and you're on something like Meals on Wheels where they're bringing meals to you, yeah. A lot of those programs don't really offer like a vegan vegetarian option. You're kind of stuck with whatever you get.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

Yeah. There was an experiment basically that dropped a full service supermarket into an urban food desert, uh, which is, you know, basically made it not a food desert anymore. And this is not a vegan-specific experiment they ran. Uh, but just putting the supermarket into the food desert basically improved the food security and uh more interestingly, added sugar intake dropped. So this shows that the constraint here is just strictly geographical and not about like dietary philosophy or dietary preference. Like they didn't tell these people to eat healthier foods, it's just they had access to the supermarket and they started eating healthier.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

They're gonna make different choices if they have choices available.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Right. So that shows that this is a real issue, but this is not an issue that is really specific to veganism at all. Like the the access to healthy food. I mean, if we're talking about access to healthy omnivorous food or access to healthy vegan food, the problem is the same. It's just they don't have access to healthy options in general.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah. But I mean, aside from the healthy food, if the only place you can shop is a convenience store or a gas station store, you're kind of limited to whatever they offer. You

Surviving Food Deserts

SPEAKER_01 19:59

know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 19:59

Yeah, exactly. So some of the things that you can do if you're in this kind of environment and you want to kind of strive towards a more vegan diet, a more plant-based diet, are um focus on some shelf-stable things when you are able to make it to the grocery store, or even shelf-stable things that your convenience stores might have. Uh, these are things like canned beans, canned lentils, canned tomatoes, peanut butter, rice, oats, dry pasta, nutritional yeast, and um, they have those soy milk cartons that are actually shelf-stable. You don't even have to keep those in the refrigerator. So, you know, as you go, you can kind of stock up on a lot of these shelf-stable things. Also, again, like the frozen vegetables, frozen fruits, just you know, this is from the standpoint of uh can't get to the grocery store very often. So you can buy more of the frozen stuff, bring it home, and freeze it.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Um, you can also buy seeds, and in some cases, I mean, I know some some people might not have like even a yard to grow things. Right. But you could buy seeds and maybe even grow some stuff inside. Even if that's just um herbs and spices, because those can be kind of expensive. But they're actually a lot of those are pretty easy to grow. So you could grow your own herbs and spices and stuff. And then in the US, if you're on our SNAP benefits or our uh EBT benefits, which is basically uh welfare system for food, if you're on those, uh they actually have specific allowances and provisions for seeds and food-producing plants. Because the idea there is maybe you can use some um some of this extra allowance to help you grow your own food at home a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

I mean, you're not you're probably not gonna be able to self-sustain entirely off your home garden, but it will definitely help supplement. Yeah. Um also related to SNAP, specifically in the US, there's something called double up food bucks that basically doubles your uh snap spend allowance on fresh fruits and produce in some markets. So if you kind of look around for where you live, Google double up food bucks, um, you can find some places where that will allow you to basically spend double on those things.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

That's neat because it kind of offsets the fact that like very processed foods are cheaper on like a calorie basis. Like you're getting more calories for less money. So I think people tend to. gravitate towards the highly processed foods because they need they need those calories. Yeah. But this kind of offsets that.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Yeah, definitely. Also some places uh that are a food desert type situations, um, and this isn't really US specific, but some places have community gardens. Yeah. So you can kind of participate in a community garden if that's available.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

I know when I was living in Memphis they had something like that. And I always thought that was really neat.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

You could start a community garden. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

You start a community garden.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

If this is like something that's interesting to you and you want to give more options to people in situations where they don't have a lot of choices, instead of judging them for not having choices, we can make community gardens, make it easier for them to get food and have choices.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

That can also help plant the seed, pun intended, about veganism, right? So if you're if you're starting this community garden and suddenly you're growing a bunch of food, people are probably going to eat the food there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And you can give them recipes to follow.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

There you go. You can also get shelf stable grocery shipments from like the Amazon fresh market or whatever they call it now and Walmart Plus delivery is pretty cheap. Uh and you can get you know shelf stable things from there. So you won't have to go to the grocery store. You just you can have it delivered to you.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Right. I think these are things if you're trying to do a more plant-based diet, it could be like T VP, vital wheat gluten, shelf stable silk and tofu, some protein sources that um if you're in a food desert or like especially in a rural community where they're not really catering to like the plant-based people, right? Because like I mean I think you know where my parents live they definitely can't go to their neighborhood grocery store and get like silk and tofu, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Yeah. I mean both of us grew up in like very rural sticks. So uh I'm definitely familiar with this the grocery store is not very close.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Oh yeah I mean we had to drive like 30, 40 minutes to a grocery store when I was growing up. The one there was one that was like 15 minutes away but it just didn't have it was mo really anything, you know?

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah they they eventually built a Walmart in my town like when I was going to graduate high school but before that.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So yeah I mean if you're in like not an urban area where there aren't that many plant-based eaters they're probably not stocking the shelves with plant-based protein sources. But the good thing is a lot of plant-based protein sources are shelf stable. So like yeah like I mentioned like Vita We gluten, TVP, Edamami Puffs, shelf stable silicon tofu, lentils, beans like a lot of really great protein sources that you could buy on Amazon and just get shipped to your house. And then that's something you don't have to worry about when you're grocery shopping. I will say there are a lot of dollar stores like whether it's Family Dollar or the Dollar Tree. Yeah. And a lot of those actually have pretty reasonably priced items and they have a lot of canned foods and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

So that's also an option. There's a lot of like canned vegetables.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And then I I wanted to wrap back around to the scenario around houselessness. Um this is a real problem like and I don't think we should be shaming houseless people for the choices that they make because they don't really a lot of people don't have choices on what they can eat. And they might want to be vegan you know and they might actually care about animals or maybe they once were vegan and then their situation changed and now they don't have access to food and they can't really choose where their next meal is coming from.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

So I think the best way that we can support them if we want to give choices to people is if this is something that you're passionate about, I would recommend you donate shelf stable items that are plant-based to your local food pantries and stuff so that there are options for people to choose that aren't, you know I think you could definitely make an argument that somebody in that situation could still be vegan even if they end up having to eat animal products just because they're out of options because you know the the definition of veganism at least the modern definition is basically like as far as is possible and practicable. So if you're like if you consider yourself a vegan and you're doing everything in your power to conform to the that you know vegan philosophy, I I think you're still a vegan. It's just you know your your current circumstances don't allow you to do everything you might do otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

You're doing everything you can.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

But we can support people by donating like you know canned beans, canned lentils, vegan soups, vegan stews, vegan chilies, like canned products that are plant-based.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Or you could uh volunteer with a group of your fellow vegans and run a food kitchen in which you do a plant-based meal option.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Yeah and you know uh we went back to basically the cheapest thousand calories is going to be vegan so if you're trying to run a food kitchen it's probably economically a good idea to make it entirely vegan although you know some people do have preferences.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

So yes everyone's gonna have different preferences. There are some things um we used to do we used to run one like a couple times a year at one of my previous jobs and uh we usually went with like spaghetti actually and I think that you could make a vegan version of that pretty easy.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

We did spaghetti garlic bread that kind of thing. Yeah. So yeah substitute in some beyond or even like T VP crumbles and most people probably aren't going to know. But do let them know that there might be a soy allergy, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah yeah cool.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

But yeah there's stuff that you can do to support people that are struggling with

Time and Labor Costs

SPEAKER_01 27:24

having choices.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

Yeah definitely all right so next up is the time or labor type argument against veganism. Some of the arguments here are that you have to have free time to be able to cook and prepare vegan meals and lack of free time is a big constraint for a lot of people so I can see where they're coming from here. Cooking from scratch and this whole food diet we're talking about is cheap in terms of dollars but it can be expensive in terms of you know the hours it takes to make the food. And I don't think you know I think you probably know how long it takes to make food.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

It can take a while.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Yeah so people you know in some circumstances like single parents shift workers multi-job households um or even like there's only one vegan in the family and somebody else says like some other dietary thing suddenly you're making like three different meals for dinner.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

A lot of those things people just don't have time for similarly um if you have a disability you maybe aren't really mobile enough to like cook your own food.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Or if you are maybe because of your disability it takes even more time than it would have to be so I mean yeah these are some valid constraints. So um let's talk about those in a little more detail. So um first of all the time is real right so when possible if you're time constrained default to some of those convenience options. It might be a little more expensive um but I wouldn't you know get overly hung up on if I can't cook from scratch, I can't be a vegan.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah. Yeah I mean like in a perfect world I think we'd all like to like make our own bread from scratch every day and like make our own homemade meats and make our own homemade pasta sauces and whatnot. Yeah from the tomatoes we grew up make our own homemade pasta and roll it out in a pasta maker but like that shit takes time.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

A lot of time.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

Yeah. And and most people don't cook from scratch anyway. So using this as like the basis of comparison or the argument isn't isn't really um super fruitful because you're saying okay if I switch to vegan and I start cooking on my meals from scratch, like that's gonna take a lot of extra time. It's like okay well you weren't really doing that anyway. So like why are we comparing it this way?

SPEAKER_01 29:28

I will say that I cooked as an well I never cooked as an omnivore because I went vegetarian at 12.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

But I did cook as a vegetarian and I have cooked as a vegan and I don't really think it takes any longer.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

You know?

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I think like the only part that's like maybe longer is like oh you got a pressure tofu. Okay. Buy the super firm tofu.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

Yeah. And that actually leads into the next thing I saw there have been some studies that show that the actual time issue with switching to a vegan diet is mostly in like the perceived time it's gonna take. But when they actually look at you know cooking and comparing there's not actually a difference in actual time used.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Oh I believe that. Yeah the only part I could see that would be added time is like if you weren't eating many vegetables when you were an omnivore and now you're incorporating more vegetables, like those can take time to clean and then cut.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

And but you're gonna have the same problem if you just start eating healthier and it has nothing to do with veganism. Even if you're not a vegan and you want to start eating healthier that's probably going to include more prepping vegetables.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Oh yeah. I think like what I see a lot of people saying is like okay so if I'm a vegan and like for instance like I'm gonna make a homemade pizza like we're gonna do pizza night Saturdays. If you were gonna make a homemade pizza as an omnivore, you're still gonna have to make the dough just like I am as a vegan. The only difference is I don't really like most cheeses for the pizza so I'm gonna make my own cheese.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

But like the cheese we make takes literally five minutes and then it's done.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

You know but like I think it's like the idea that like oh well vegans have to make their own like vegan meats like Setan or like vegans are going to make their own vegan cheese sauces like with cashews or tofu or like whatever and that's a larger time commitment. But you don't necessarily have to do those things.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

And they also don't take as long as it's perceived that they take.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Right. And you know back in the 90s when somebody was trying to be a vegan they basically did have to make everything from scratch. Oh yeah. But you know now in modern times there are a lot of convenience vegan options in the grocery store. Some of those are more processed some of those are more expensive but there are also fairly minimally processed and comparatively priced convenience options basically in the store. You've got like your normal rice or your beans you might have to cook from scratch but also right next to it is like some slightly prepared version of rice like or the slightly prepared bean mix situation.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah like minute rice now.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Right, yeah. So there are convenience options that will help you save a lot of time.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I will say I think where the time and labor argument really holds weight is when it's like time and labor and also a cost constraint.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Because now it's like I don't have time and I also don't have the money to pay for convenience options.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

But I think there's ways around that too.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

And again this would come into play in the same way if you even if you're not a vegan but you were trying to eat healthier. So this is not really something I see as a vegan specific problem. I feel like if you had like a meal and then a vegan version of that meal and you were going to make them both in the kitchen from scratch side by side the time wouldn't really be different. It's like what what are the vegan ingredients that you can think of that are only used in vegan meals that take a lot of time.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

I can't really think of any. Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

So yeah all

Fast Vegan Meal Prep

SPEAKER_04 32:34

right um so some of the things you can do to help save time if you're trying to eat more uh vegan focused or even if you're just trying to eat healthier no matter what your dietary preference is are um 30-minute one-pot meals so you can do like um like an instant pot or a crock pot type meal something like the chili we talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

That's yeah chili's a really good one but but the effort takes a c like 30 minutes and then it just does its thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Right. Or you could do if you have an instant pot, you can do that faster. Or you can kind of um just put a pot on the stove and just throw a bunch of stuff in there like an old old fashioned stew basically there's a lot of ways to make that and you can make a lot of food all the time curries.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah curries yeah like one pan meals um one thing that we like to do is basically just cut up some bell peppers and onions toss them in some seasoning along with some sliced tofu throw all of that on one sheet throw it in the oven for 30 minutes and then you have like easy fajitas.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And that's cheap too.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

Yeah yeah for sure um you can also do like batch cooking in the slow cooker instant pot. Like you make something that will you cook it once and it lasts like four to six days kind of like a meal prep situation. Those are really good. Also we were talking about the prep time for vegetables you can get frozen pre-cut vegetables and like we talked about earlier just as good nutritional quality are usually a lot cheaper than fresh vegetables and they're already prepped.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

So yeah and a lot of them are like in steamable bags you just chuck them in the microwave and you're done.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Yeah. So I would definitely lean heavily on those if you're time constrained.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Same with like rice. They make rice in pouches that you can steam in the microwave.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

There's a lot of like convenience options that if you maybe maybe you're disabled or maybe you're very low on time, like you can cut off a lot of time by using some of those options and just chucking them in the microwave.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Yeah beans are another big one. Dry beans are incredibly cheap but you do have to kind of go through the whole soaking cooking process or whatever. So instead you can start with canned beans which are a little more expensive but still pretty cheap. Yeah. And they're already precooked so you basically open the can and you can eat them right out of the can cold if you want, but you you know use them in your dish immediately you don't have to do any prep work with them. And then smoothies are a really fast option as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Smoothies I think are a very underrated option. Like if if you're someone who just does not have the time or ability to cook yeah I think smoothies are a good way to get a lot of your vitamins and nutrients in in one in one go and then I don't want to say well eat whatever the hell else you want for the rest of the day but I I am going to say that. You know what I mean? Like throw in your spinach throw in your frozen fruits like maybe chuck in a block of silk and tofu.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

You know and you have like your protein, your fiber, a bunch of your vitamins.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Yeah. And I think these are especially good for maybe you only have specific times of day that are time constrained. Like maybe you could spend two hours on dinner if you really wanted to but for breakfast and lunch you've got like 10 minutes. So you could go to a smoothie for those and then make something more you know if you actually enjoy cooking you make something more substantial for like dinner or whatever. So I I think they're really good for like oh I need um a lot of nutritious food and you know a pretty decent amount of calories pretty quickly here I'd go for smoothies.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah. I will say um like when I've worked turnarounds are usually the the most time constrained I've ever been yeah and if you don't know what a turnaround is it's basically like at a refinery and at some like chemical plants basically they'll take units or even the entire place down for like a month, maybe two months at a time and basically anyone that works there is almost around the clock working. So you're working like 12 to 14 hours a day every single day on site and then like maybe you get one day off every 14 days.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

So you just don't have time to like cook and I think this this is the same if you're on like shift work. Yeah and you're working like a 12 hour job you know 12 hour shifts or like you're switching between night and day like yeah obviously that can be really problematic if you're trying to make healthy meals.

Meal Prep for Busy Days

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Right for sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

So I think one of the good strategies is like meal prep something easy on the weekend that's gonna last you a long time or like if it's only a specific period of time where you're time constrained, maybe you meal prep stuff and then freeze it so that you have meals for like that week or that month where you really don't have time.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

And then like another breakfast I really like I know I talk about TvP muffins a lot. If you've listened to our podcast you've heard of TvP muffins.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

But what I like about those is they literally take 15 minutes and then you can freeze them and then just like pull one or two out and set it out to like defrost and you have like the perfect portable breakfast.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

And then I think the other piece would be if you're time constrained but maybe you're not cost constrained there are vegan options that you can get at various like restaurants.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Right? I'd focus on to like Taco Bell like we were talking about you get a lot of really good healthy whole food plant based options at Taco Bell but also like a noodle bowl or a rice bowl or poke bowls.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Asian places are great for this.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah you can add a lot of tofu so you're still getting your protein um like Thai. You can usually get like um like pad Thai with tofu and no egg smoothie places that pre-make you smoothies and smoothie bowls and any kind of you know and a lot of those will usually have um vegan protein powders they throw into them.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

So you know there are good options if you're time constrained but you have some money to spend there. And you know I think we covered some of the like maybe more cost effective options if you're also time constrained being around like canned beans and like honestly like canned beans and tortillas are one of the cheapest things that you could you could eat and you can eat that in like a variety of ways and like flavor them up in different ways and it doesn't take much time. So yeah there's definitely ways you can eat even if you're time constrained and you're cost constrained.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

And um I haven't personally made any of her recipes but there's um an Instagram person called uh cheap lazy vegan I think okay I haven't made any but she makes cheap and lazy vegan meals so you might check that out yeah um and then there's also uh going back to the cost one if you're on Reddit at all there's actually uh eat cheap and vegan subreddit and there's lots of ideas in that and a lot of those are like low effort as well right so go on Reddit get ideas ask questions the the good thing about the vegan community and you know you've probably heard the vegan propaganda that vegans are horrible miserable evil people but but actually if you go on Reddit and you ask a question like hey I'm trying to eat more plant based foods like can you give me some ideas you are going to be flooded with helpful responses that are very like kind because all we really want is for people to stop eating animals.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

You know and we're more than happy to help you do that. At least that's been my personal like that's what I've personally seen.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Especially though yeah those communities on Reddit that's basically what they're for is to help people like find the recipes and find ways to eat plant based so very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I mean that's literally why we started our our food blog yeah was like I kept hearing stuff about like you can't get enough protein on a vegan diet.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

And then I had all these things that we were making at home and I was we were just kind of like we should publish this so that people know you can do that.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

I just want people to stop eating animals. So and I think most people do. So they will help you. You you will get a support system is the main piece.

Culture and Family Barriers

SPEAKER_04 40:14

All right. Uh so let's move into the next kind of category of arguments here which is basically around culture or family um maybe family traditions. Um so there there's a lot of stuff in here I'm gonna do our best to unpack a lot of it and talk through some of it.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

The general idea is that going vegan may cause some issues like it might mean cooking separately inside your family or it might cause some social friction. It might conflict with some like religious obligations around food or cultural kind of traditions, obligations, things like that. There's also the problem that a lot of vegan influencer content on social media leans very white and upper middle class. A lot of the loudest voices here are like affluent white tone deaf to material constraints talking about like their expensive cashew cheeses and oat milk lattes every day and things like that. So that's definitely a very real thing that happens on the internet. This is kind of gonna be a little historical I guess about plant-based eating. So let's let's dive into that a little bit so most of the traditional cuisines worldwide are actually plant forward by default which is like very heavily plant-based. Animal products historically were like a luxury that were just added onto the meal and not the staple of the meal. The current state of like animal products and diets in industrialized countries like America is uh kind of unusual historically and it's really only made possible by like industrial animal agriculture and government subsidies.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

And capitalism.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

Yeah. Yeah so traditional Indian Ethiopian Mexican Thai Mediterranean Japanese uh West Africa much of it and Latin American cuisines are predominantly plant-based with small amounts of animal protein like as extra flavoring.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

So this is not like a a Western invented style of eating.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

As someone who's on the internet a lot this this is definitely true. Like I can see how people think veganism is a white thing because a lot of the influencers are white a lot of the food content creators are white I am white but there's also a lot of non-white content creators that are that are vegan and that are reinventing traditional dishes from their heritage and stuff. Yeah definitely but I can see how this becomes a narrative.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Yeah. Yeah and I think one of the downsides of social media is that like extreme or luxurious things tend to look the best. So people like see expensive options or flashy options and that's what kind of gets promoted on social media. So if you're just at home and you're like a normal person just making your beans and rice, that doesn't really get surfaced, but that's actually like the most common way for people to eat plant based right I I feel like the ones that go viral are like somebody goes to like that what's that super expensive grocery store in LA that people talk about.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Anyways there's a super expensive grocery store in LA where they charge you like $20 for oatmeal or something. Oh I don't know but like you know but like people and but like they have a lot of vegan stuff. Yeah. So you'll see a lot of videos where people are like I went and shopped at this place and like look at my hall and you're just like holy shit you just spent so much money.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

But like I feel like because they're so ridiculous they do better than like just normal people living normal lives.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Um so that that is the problem of social media but I don't necessarily think it's a vegan thing because like if you look at like omnivore recipe creators or just like omnivore content creators that are just or influencers that are just living their lives like they're doing the same kind of thing, you know?

SPEAKER_04 43:50

Yeah. People tend to look to the lifestyle influencers or whatever as kind of an escapism. So then their mind they're like, oh what if I was in LA eating at this super expensive Or whatever. Like, even if you live there, you wouldn't really want to do that. But there's this thing in your mind that's like, oh, that that looks cool to me.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Or like, I don't know anything about that. Like, that could never be me. Let me go like see what people are doing.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

I think it's more like a curiosity thing, like, what are rich people doing?

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

You know, that's why like the Kardashians is a popular show. I personally never watched it, but I know a lot of people that do.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Um But yeah, but there are a lot of amazing content creators that aren't doing stuff like that, that are like promoting like cheap meals, or like, here are ways to make like whole food plant-based recipes on a budget.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Um, or like traditional meals veganized.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

You know?

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

So you can find those. But I can I can see where this is coming from for sure.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Yeah. The moral of the story is uh social media kind of sucks and it doesn't really reflect how most people eat.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

It absolutely sucks.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

So uh in India specifically, vegetarianism goes back thousands of years, and even today, somewhere between 20 and 37 percent of people in India follow a vegetarian diet.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Aaron Powell I think that's so cool.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

Yeah. And then um in America, pre-Christopher Columbus uh indigenous Americans' diets were heavily plant-based. Um, corn, beans, squash, potatoes, quinoa, chia, peanuts, tomatoes, and cocoa all originated from indigenous American agriculture.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Aaron Powell Damn you, Columbus, for ruining everything.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

Right. Um also traditional African cuisines across the whole continent are predominantly plant-based. They're built on grains, legumes, and vegetables, some of those common staples we talked about. Um and actually you touched on this a little bit, but modern uh vegan African food movements are specifically framed around recovering those traditions rather than like importing a Western tradition, because again, like plant-based eating is not a Western created tradition.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think at least my understanding is like America, specifically the United States, kind of started with the whole factory farming and like wait finding ways to make animal products super, super, super cheap.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. And so it's it's actually kind of the reverse of the arguments I see a lot where people are saying like veganism is colonialism, I guess is kind of the argument. Yeah. But it's actually um kind of backwards there because the plant-based food diversity has been eroded by colonialization and industrial agriculture not promoted by it. So actually the the colonialization is uh introducing these industrial meat. Factory farms. Right. And you know, the European colonization into the US um mostly displaced like the indigenous Americans plant agriculture in favor of their animal product systems.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

So I mean, this is just like if there if there's a Western influence, it is adding more meat to everything.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Yeah, making everything more meat-centric.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Yeah. So so yeah, I think that that portion of the argument really just has it backwards.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

It falls apart pretty fast when you poke at it.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Yeah, yeah. So I mean the actual the actual like cultural lineage of plant-based eating is mainly like uh indigenous, ancient, goes back thousands of years, um, global, not really something that emerged from the Western world.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

I do see a lot of things though, of like there are traditional dishes that use meat.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

And I think some of the arguments are coming from not necessarily like we want meat focus, but more like it's unfair of you to expect me to like no longer eat my traditional dishes if you want me to go fully plant-based.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

And and another one that I see a lot is like um it's more around indigenous Americans. And it's talking about how they lived in harmony with nature and they did hunt, but they respected the animal and they used every part of the animal. That's something that I'm hearing a lot.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah. Yeah, but that's not how most people in America are getting their meat anymore, right? Like most people, almost all people, I would imagine, get it from grocery stores. Potentially you get it from a local farmer. Um, there are still obviously hunters, but as far as like amount of meat consumed, uh, the hunted meat in the wild is like an extremely low percentage.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yeah. And I do think there are probably indigenous American reservations where they are still like following cultural practices and and eating that way. Um, you know, I think veganism in general is we're trying to get away from eating all animals, but I think like, at least in my mind, the main thing we should be tackling at this point is factory farms.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like the industrialized process that's cramming a bunch of these animals into one spot and treating them horribly and then killing them for meat on like a massive scale.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Is is really the issue.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

So I guess the part I take issue with is like a lot of the comments I've seen, because I I'm on threads a lot, but it's kind of like saying we can't stop eating animals because indigenous Americans have these traditions with animals and they kind of hide behind that, um like a like a group of people to uphold factory farms when like how we currently do animal agriculture is incongruent to like traditional indigenous American cultures, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

Yeah. Definitely. I think it's there's definitely a a mismatch there. Yeah. Some of the things you can do. If you're maybe in one of these countries or geographical locations where it's um maybe harder to get some of these plant-based options, or maybe you've got some cultural restraints or something like that. Um one thing that comes up a lot is basically, but in uh my country, I can't find things like tofu, oat milk, or protein powder. Well, the good news is you don't need those things. Uh you really just need like legumes, grains, and vegetables to build your diet around, and those are available in every country. So I would definitely focus more towards those whole food, simple, you know, plant foods rather than like these products.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah. And I think in terms of like traditional meals that have always had animal products, I think that I personally think there's something kind of cool about like trying to reinvent those with a plant-based twist.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

I mean, like I wouldn't say that I have deep cultural roots because my parents are just like Midwestern white people. But like there are dishes that I grew up with that like my dad taught me that his dad taught him. I'm not saying they go far back enough to consider myself like cultured, having much of a culture. Um, but some of the first things I cooked when I went vegan were those dishes of like, how can I veganize like my dad's scalloped potatoes? Because like I just remember that that was something that we always had like once a year. That was like a special dish that he made.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I know it's not like super special, but like that's something like my dad made. Or like sometimes he would make crepes on Sunday. Like, how can I veganize that? Or you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

So I I think it's kind of cool to like try to veganize like traditional dishes. And there are a lot of like accounts and food blogs that are veganizing their traditional dishes that are part of their heritage. Yeah. You know, which I think is really neat because I don't I don't really, I guess, have much of a heritage, you know. I feel like when you're like just a a midwestern white person, you just kind of feel like a mutt. Like, I don't really have like I don't know, like I think my dad's got like some German Polish and my mom's got I don't know, some other shit. But um, what I can tell you is my dad makes some pretty good scallop potatoes.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Uh so we veganized those. Yeah. But like people with actual heritages, they're veganizing traditional dishes and they're making really cool stuff. Yeah. So you can check those out.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Like if you're missing your favorite foods, if you're plant-based, I'm sure someone has veganized it and done a hell of a job.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

Yeah.

unknown 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

So there are some places where it like really is pretty tricky. And a lot of those are like the very northern climates where they have uh short growing seasons, uh, limited imports, things like that, hard to get, you know, uh stuff moved around inside the area. Um, so uh your your biggest thing there, you're gonna be leaning on like getting some of those dry staples shipped in in bulk whenever you can. Um but yeah, I mean there's no there's no getting around, like it's hard there. You can't really grow stuff for the most part in your own yard very much. Uh you're not having a lot of options, you might not even be able to get to the grocery store very easily just because of the weather. So there's a lot of stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

There are certain climates where I essentially all you can grow is like grass that a cow can eat, right? But like humans can't eat grass. So like uh they're relying a lot on animal products because they can't grow any crops that are things humans can eat.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Right. And I feel like if you're in one of those places and your like hands are tied and you also don't get imports from other countries, like I don't think any vegan would be expecting you to starve yourself, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:57

I mean at a certain point you just have to play the cards you're dealt.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

So yeah, do the best you can.

SPEAKER_04 53:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Which is I think the modern definition, like you said earlier.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Like as much as practically reasonably possible.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

And then I think another one that you touched on earlier was like uh family constraints. Like if you know say maybe you're a kid in an omnivore family and they're really not gonna let you go vegan.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

I mean sometimes you're gonna have to wait till you're 18. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Sometimes that's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

I mean, there are some, you know, I don't think anyone, any no, no reasonable vegan isn't expecting you to like push that if it's like an unsafe condition, you know, condition. Like, you know, there are households where like that becomes like maybe like a concern of safety if you keep pushing something like that, or like, you know, maybe a concern of an eating disorder comes up if you're like refusing to eat animal products and nobody will give you food that's plant-based.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, you just you have to you have to do what you can when you can, and maybe you'll be able to do more later, and you'll you know, that's just the way it

The Nutrition Debate

SPEAKER_04 54:03

is.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

Um, and then kind of the last quote category we wanted to talk about here is the nutrition argument. So this one comes up a lot. It's probably the most common like off the cuff thing that people say about veganism.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Like it's hard to be a healthy vegan, is what I hear.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

And like if you can be a healthy vegan, that's a privilege.

SPEAKER_04 54:19

Yeah. So some of the arguments for this are like some people have limited access to nutrition education, which is fair. I mean, most most uh doctors don't have a ton of nutrition education. So most normal people have basically none unless they look into intentionally at something.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Across the board, though.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, not just vegan specific, but across the board.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

Um, some there's also an argument that it's hard to get all your nutrients on a vegan diet. Um, so it it might take a little more thought. I don't know if I would necessarily say it's hard, but um, this is one of the arguments that comes up.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Depending on where you live, I guess. Yeah. Kind of like back to our last point.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

Yeah, for sure. Um, there's also an argument that vegans have to take too many supplements. So uh we'll talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

And then um, there's the argument that the vegan supplements you do have to take are expensive, and kind of getting all your nutrition on a vegan diet is also expensive because you have to have more fruits, things like that. So this is all the stuff around nutrition that kind of floats around for veganism. And then there's the whole uh protein thing, not really going to get into here because that's basically our entire personality.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

So yeah, you can get protein. Go go check out some of the other stuff we've talked about.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

Um but yeah, so uh talking about some of these um in specific, basically vitamin B12 is really the only supplement that all vegans require. Right. Right? Like it's the only thing we cannot get from the whole foods. So we do have to have that as a supplement most of the time. We can get a lot through like fortified milks and nutritional yeast and some other fortified foods and stuff. Uh, but it's usually just to play it safe, you just take the supplement.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Yeah, why not, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:52

Yeah. So the pill form of a vitamin B12 supplement is like five to fifteen cents a day. And there are also multivitamins that contain B12, and they're obviously more expensive than just B12, but they're still pretty cheap. You can get some multivitamins for like in the range of $10 to $15 a month.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

But like, okay, here's my thing is like ever since I've been alive, I've seen endless commercials on multivitamins for children, for adults, for men, for women, like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

The supplement industry is huge. If vegans were the only ones spending money there, I don't think it'd be as big as it is since vegans are like what one to three percent of the population.

SPEAKER_04 56:26

Yeah, I don't know if you've been in the uh pharmacy section of your local either pharmacy or supermarket, but there are like three rows dedicated to individual vitamins, and they're not selling most of those to vegans.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

Oh yeah. I mean, I think I think most people that are concerned about their health are probably taking a multivitamin.

SPEAKER_04 56:45

Right. Or I would think. Also, GNC has been around a long time. Uh oh yeah. So they're not selling most of their stuff to the vegans. The vitamin shop. So this whole like supplement vitamin argument is like the B12 thing is kind of vegan specific sometimes, even though, like I've said before, I actually had to take B12 before I was. So I don't know. That's it's always been pretty common. Um but yeah, B12 is the one we have to take. Everything else is like a lot of people are taking multivitamins and supplements anyway, so this is not like a vegan-specific concern.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Right. And I can tell you they don't all sell them to vegans because most of them have gelatin capsules, and we don't buy those.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

So Yeah. Uh and other than the B12, a varied mostly whole food vegan diet provides sufficient nutrients in almost all cases. Uh, and you know, y you might think, oh, there's the catch there. You said the mostly whole food vegan diet. Well, yeah, but even non-vegans who are not eating mostly whole food are still gonna run into nutrient deficiencies. So, I mean, whether we're a junk food vegan or a junk food processed food non-vegan, right, we're probably missing out on some nutrients there.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Oh, absolutely. I just think the thing that I find kind of interesting is like you'll see this from a lot of people that aren't worried about their nutrition currently as an omnivore.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

And I'm like, I don't know why you care so much about like my protein and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 58:02

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

When you don't even know how much protein you're getting, bro.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

Yeah, or the vitamins.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Or the vitamins.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Like, oh, you can't get all your vitamins on a vegan diet. It's like, are you are you getting all your vitamins? Do you even know? Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

And the thing that's always kind of driven me a little insane is like acting as if taking a supplement is somehow like horrible and artificial and very bad because like I don't want to ruin your day, but if you're getting your B12 from animal products, your animals are being supplemented. You're just like enjoying their supplementation.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

Yeah. And you know, to to preempt a little bit the animal argument, and a lot of people are saying like most cows or whatever won't get B12, they get supplemented with a mineral mix that includes cobalt, which is how cows make B12. Yeah. B12. And they specifically get cobalt in those mineral mixes so that they can get B12 because they don't get enough from the soil almost anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:53

Because of the industrialized cows don't even graze. They're like, you know, uh fed feed or whatever. But even the cows that do graze, a lot of those farms, because they've been used so much over the years, the soil doesn't really have enough B12 to support the whole system anymore.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:10

So I mean they just throw some cheap cobalt into the mineral mixes. Uh uh remnants like cows use cobalt to make B12 in their stomachs, and that's how they get their B12. So even if they're not getting directly supplemented with B12, they are still getting supplemented with the cobalt, which is a supplement. So how does it be?

SPEAKER_01 59:23

It's essentially B yeah, it's essentially the same.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

And in cases where they run into cows with deficiencies or other issues, they do just and supplement them directly with B12, which is pretty common too.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

So And like the other thing is I think a lot of people are on vitamin D just like because you have desk jobs that are inside.

SPEAKER_04 59:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Right? And like I I think most people wouldn't have an issue with taking a vitamin D supplement in the winter or something, you know?

SPEAKER_04 59:44

I c I don't know that I've ever met anybody that has never ever taken a multivitamin.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Yeah, yeah. You've been taking them since you were kids with their little Flintstone vitamins. Sorry, guys.

SPEAKER_04 59:55

So yeah, it boils down to yeah, most vegans should probably take a 10 cent a day vitamin B12 supplement. If that's like the whole crux of your argument, I don't think it's a very good argument.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:05

Um but some of the strategies you can maybe employ to make sure that you're hitting your nutritional goals as you try to move towards a vegan diet. Um, one, you can track your nutrition with a free app like Chronometer. Basically, it the chronometer specifically is uh liked by vegans because it does a very good job of tracking micronutrients. Um, so you can put your food in there for a couple weeks, make sure there's nothing you're like totally missing out on. But the main reason for this is not because vegan foods don't have nutrients, it's because when you switch to a vegan diet, you're still figuring out like your swaps and your replacements for some of the non-vegan foods. Uh so there may be like other categories of food you never really ate as a non-vegan that maybe you should eat now. Or also kind of like we were talking about, maybe you were just a little deficient on your non-vegan diet. Right. And now you can keep track of it. You could also, even if you took a vitamin B12, a vitamin D, and an iron supplement, which are kind of the three most common you see talked about with vegans, um, you could do all that for like 15 or 20 bucks a month, which is like one fast food meal, basically.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

Honestly, I've always been taking an iron supplement for like the last over a decade, even when I was a vegetarian, I just have low iron.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

I don't think it doesn't even matter how much I eat.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

Nobody's surprised to hear that plenty of non-vegans have anemia issues.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Especially women. Because guys, we bleed a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:15

So extremely common.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I mean, my thing is like I even tracked my iron as far as like I would put it in like my fitness pal or something to see that I was getting at least 100% a day. And it's just like my iron's low. I don't know. My iron is low and eat supplemented, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

Yeah. It's always been that way, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Yeah, it's really not a big deal. My doctor told me to take an iron supplement.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

So there are also a lot of free resources available for learning about plant-based diets. Again, because vegans tend to really want people to stop eating animals, we tend to put out a whole lot of free uh advice and information and things like that. Um so basically YouTube, great source of information. Um, specifically, nutritionfacts.org is run by Dr. Gregor, who wrote the How Not to Die book we mentioned from time to time. Um but he's basically been making short YouTube videos on specific topics for um nutritious plant-based food for like 20 years now. So if you go to his website, he's got videos for like every topic under the sun. Really awesome source of information, and it's all free. Um and then your books at the local library. Um you if you can't get to the local library because maybe you um have like you get these public transportation or whatever, um, if you download an app called Libby, um, you can basically go to your most local libraries have a website. You can go on there, like sign up for a library card. Yeah. You can actually do this right through Libby, but you can also use the website. Um but basically you get your library card assigned through the email, uh, and then you put your library card into Libby, and Libby will basically like rent you books on your device, like your phone or whatever, or in some and even audiobooks.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Uh using your library card, and that's all free.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

That's how I found out about it, because I like to listen to audiobooks.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

And someone at work was telling me that you can do that. And I was like, oh my God, I haven't had a library card since I was like a kid. Yeah. So I just signed up online. I haven't even been in the local library, but I can rent stuff on Libby.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

Yeah, we have a library card to our local county library and I get stuff through Libby. Um I've only I've been in there once for something unrelated, but basically I get all my library books through Libby.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

It's all free. It's all free. The only catch is if it's a really popular book, um, they still only like have so many slots for each book. Yeah. I guess of licensing or whatever. So uh a really popular book, you might have to be like, okay, put me on the wait list, and you might have to wait a week and then you'll be able to read the book.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

But you don't have to worry about that because veganism isn't very popular.

unknown 1:03:34

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Also, no uh no late fees for returns.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

That's nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Yeah, they just snatch it back out.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

Oh, do you know? This is totally off topic. I saw uh something recently that said um libraries, I guess, did some studies. I don't know which libraries, but they did some studies and found that people um were actually more likely to return books if they didn't have return fees at all. Um That's interesting. So there are a lot of libraries now that basically switch to no return fees because they're more likely to get their books back and people will use the library more because they're not afraid to like they if you have this book that's like late, you're like, I'm never stepping foot in that place again because I gotta pay this fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:09

So if they just say no fines, then they get their books back. People use the library a lot more. That's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:13

Oh my God. Okay, this is a pretty embarrassing story, but the last time I applied for a job, right, was like five years ago. I was applying for this job. I had pretty I'd gotten the offer. So they're doing the background check, right? Yeah. So all of a sudden, I get a call from the company I'm like trying to get hired to. Yeah. And they're like, um, we actually can't get your college transcript. And I'm like, what do you mean you can't get my college transcript? And they're like, Yeah, your background check flew up a flag that you couldn't get your we couldn't get your college transcript. So I had to call my college. And it turns out I had in fact taken out a book on PVC polyvinyl chloride for my senior project. Never returned it. So they had a hold on my account. Yeah. And so I had to like call the school library and be like, can you please, can you please give them my transcript so I can have my job? And it's I I really need to send it back.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:12

You still have the book?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

I still have the book.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

I know. We should do that. We should do that this week. Just with like, I know I'm sorry. Honestly, the thing is like when you're exiting college, there's so much going on. You're like getting a new job and you're having to move, like, I was moving across state, like to different state and stuff. And it just happened to get wrapped up in all my other school shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

And then it's and the thing is, is that it was always on my mind. It was in my trunk. It was in my trunk for like 10 years. And I just like knew it was in my trunk. And I was like, I should really like somehow give this back to the college. And I just never did it because I don't go to the UPS store much.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:52

And the bright side is probably still useful. I can't imagine the science behind PVC has changed much.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

It's like a it's like a book from the 70s. This thing's old because it That was one of my other things. I'm like, this is a really old book. I just like, who's reading about this? Because I did a project on like my senior design project was like, uh, plan out a fake PVC plant. Like how how much would it cost to like create one from scratch or whatever? So I had to learn all the ins and outs of like, I don't remember any of it. But I that book was really handy. And so I guess no one's been able to pick PVC since I left. I should really send it back. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

A warning to return your college books because it might prevent you to get from getting a job.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

But I did pass the drug test.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:36

So there you go.

Veganism Is More Accessible

SPEAKER_04 1:06:39

Yeah. So just to kind of uh recap everything we've talked about here, while vegan marketing or like online content and influencer content can feel very Western influenced and kind of whitewashed. Uh the actual vegan diet is one of the cheapest and most accessible diets in the world. So uh don't let anybody tell you different.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

And I would go so far as to say, like, there are more plant-based people in other parts of the world than in America.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:04

Oh, absolutely. Like we are uh the minority of plant-based eaters.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

We might be the most annoying online and talk about it the most, but like, yeah, we're in the minority for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

We're just trying to educate, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:16

So is veganism privileged? Uh well, sometimes the way people talk about it is, and sometimes the people products marketed under it are, but and sometimes the influencers that represent it are. Uh, but beans, lentils, rice, oats, potatoes, peanut butter, tofu, and vegetables are not like inherently elite foods. Uh the real question is not whether every person and every circumstance can be perfectly vegan like today or tomorrow. Uh, the question is where do we have the choices and how can we reduce harm with those choices? And how do we make healthy plant-based options easier for more people to get access to?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Yeah.

unknown 1:07:51

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:52

And then, you know, I mentioned it earlier, but I also want to really lean into the definition of veganism, including uh kind of the term as far as possible and practicable. And you can still make a difference even if you have constraints. And impossible and practicable leaves room for those real-world constraints. Uh, someone in a food desert might have different options than somebody in like a major city with close access to a supermarket. Someone relying on food banks may have less control than somebody doing like weekly grocery visits. Uh, someone living with family may not be able to control every meal for whatever reason. Someone that's like traveling, um, hospitalized, deployed in the military, incarcerated, or living in poverty may face various constraints that they have to deal with. So the most useful version of veganism is not do everything perfectly or you're a hypocrite. It's like avoid animal exploitation where you reasonably can and work to expand what's reasonably possible for more people.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Yeah. And I guess I'll end this with if you're one of the people talking about all of these circumstances in which people can't be vegan, but you're also not vegan and you're not in any of those circumstances, stop hiding behind other people.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:01

Yeah, you see that a lot. People like throw out, uh, well, you can't be vegan because these people couldn't be vegan for whatever reason. It's like, what does that have to do with you?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

I know. Like, not everyone has to be vegan for all of us to make a difference and move towards plant-based and get rid of factory farming. Right. So, like, if you can do it and you agree with the ethics and morals, you should do your part. Yeah. I guess is is my main takeaway, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

And I will say, I think I think if society was able to move more towards plant-based food, I think it would help, you know, all these other places. Help a lot of these other places and a lot of these other issues kind of be uh less of a constraint.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah. And I I will say, like the excuse that, like, oh, this group of people can't be vegan, so I'm not going to be vegan, sounds a lot like, well, my neighbors are allergic to lettuce, so I'm actually never gonna eat lettuce again.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

It sounds silly.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

It does.

unknown 1:09:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

Yeah. So we appreciate everybody listening. If you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, that helps us out a lot. You can also leave comments on Spotify and YouTube. Um, also in the show notes, we have our Deficient Vegans Discord channel, uh, where we have a lot of people talking about cool things. And then in the show notes, you can also find our websites, social media if you want to reach out, ask us questions. Especially on this uh this uh episode specifically, you know, uh I learned a lot when I was looking through kind of the details for this one and looking through some of the data. Uh I still want to learn a lot more about a lot of these different things. So if you have anything that you feel like maybe we missed the mark on, or you have additional you know, information about, uh please share that, whether it's in a comment or you can reach out in a DM if you just want to talk about it privately. Um I'd love to hear more about like some of these issues that people talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

We're okay with being proven wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

Yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

Yeah.

unknown 1:10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:40

I don't want to put out bad information. So No.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

And and if you think of any other ways like where veganism is kind of a privilege take, like let us know those. I think we tried to cover the majority of the like popular ones that we've been seeing, but like I'm sure there are others. So if you have others, you can share those as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:59

Yeah, whether you're a vegan who has heard some of these issues, or you're a non-vegan who says, Hey, I heard what you said, I don't really agree with it, or you didn't cover this whole other area of things that are are totally problematic. Uh I definitely definitely want to hear those.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:11

It's a huge issue. So like there's definitely gonna be some gaps. Perhaps we had some bad takes. Let us know.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

Yeah.

unknown 1:11:16

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:17

We have thick skin. So if you join the Discord, you can tell us how dumb we are. I have learned a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:25

Yeah, that's actually the best way to do it because you can you really get in long and in depth about everything we get wrong. There you go. All right. Uh well, we appreciate you guys listening. Um, I think that's all we have for today. Do you want to say bye?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

Bye guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:39

Bye, everybody.