Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:00

Welcome to the Deficient Vegans podcast, episode 44. I'm the muscle deficient vegan here with the protein deficient vegan. Do you want to say hi?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:06

Hi!

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:06

Hi, everybody. So this week, we're going to talk about some supplements that could be worthwhile and others maybe you should just skip, at least for now. We'll also talk about our myth of the week, which is that phytic acid in plant foods means that you can't get nutrients from them.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:18

Is that the whole anti-nutrient thing?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:20

Yeah, pretty much. Okay. So we'll talk about it a little bit.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:23

Can't wait. But first up, new news.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:25

New news! So the first piece of news is going to sound a little like Groundhog Day, but we have news about Chomp Chocolate.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:32

Wow. They should really rename it to like the Neverending Chocolate Saga or Saga Chocolate or the Chocolate Chronicles.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:41

We've mentioned Chomp Chocolate a lot over the years. A couple of weeks ago, we mentioned Chomp Chocolate was kind of like starting Chomp Chocolate 3.0 because they had switched from Chomp to like Chomp Chocolate. And now they were going back to Chomp Chocolate.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:54

Chomp chocolate is now dead officially.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:56

Yeah. He's like selling the factory.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:59

R.I.P.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:59

Liquidating assets. R.I.P. But he posted a day or two ago saying that he was going to kind of restart a chocolate brand from scratch with just like a one man operation. Just him making chocolate. And he's going to call it rogue chocolate.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:12

And he already has a website and everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:14

We'll keep an eye on it. See how it goes. He does make really good chocolate.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:17

He makes great chocolate.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:18

So, yeah, I think he's going to try to really focus on, like, sustainable, ethically sourced stuff, which he tried to do with Chomp Chocolate and kind of got hammered on supply chain issues.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:26

Yeah, I think everything just started getting too expensive. And for the price point he was trying to sell it at, it wasn't, like, sustainable. Right. But it sounds like he's doing, like, incredibly small batches because it's like a one-man show. Yeah. I don't know why he had to change the name. I feel like this is getting so confusing. Like, everyone already knows what Chomp is. I kind of wish, I mean, maybe there's, like, something there. I don't know, like, legally he needs to change it or something. I don't know. But it's rogue now.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:50

All right. Next up, Bettany Farms is making a new stretchy mozzarella vegan cheese. Oh. Now, this does not use precision fermented casein protein like a lot of the other stretchy cheeses do. And it's also not dairy.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:03

Look at us branching out.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:06

It looks like they will mostly be focused on business-to-business distribution. So, selling to, like, pizza chains or whoever else, restaurants in general. and then also to food manufacturers so they can make products for it to go in the grocery store.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:18

I'm looking forward to hopefully one pizza chain in the U.S. buying this and offering a vegan cheese option. That'd be nice.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:26

That would be nice. I don't think you'll be able to buy it directly yourself in the grocery store soon. But they did a study and they said 39% of people preferred their cheese to dairy or they had no preference.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:39

That is really high.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:40

People are very particular about cheese.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:42

Yeah. People really want the stretch. I've had a lot of people be like, On my recipes, like, does this one stretch?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:50

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:50

And it's like, it's kind of hard to get your cheese to stretch really. Like with, and also keeping all the like flavors you want in it and stuff. Right. Yeah. Be interesting to see this one. Also, I mean, there's like such a large part of the population that's dairy intolerant. So I don't know why businesses don't offer vegan cheese.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:07

Yeah. Hopefully see more of those in the future. And like you said, it'd be great to have one of the big pizza chains.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:11

It'd be so nice. Yeah. Because we, Jet Pizza is one we had last week or something. Yeah. And they have, like, a whole section on their website about how it's not just a pizza place. It can be a vegan experience. Like, they have a whole vegan page. Yeah. And it's, like, and they're talking about, like, oh, all of our crust except for one crust are vegan and all of our sauces are vegan. And they don't have vegan cheese. They have a vegan page talking about the vegan experience at Jet's Pizza but no cheese.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:39

And their vegan butter crust.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:40

I know. Yeah. That shit annoys me.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:43

It is annoying.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:44

So we just like have cheese at home and put it on. But it's annoying because it'd just be nice. It'd be nice. If you're having a hard day and you want to order pizza and you actually get the pizza the way you want to eat the pizza and you don't have to do any extra like cheese addition at home. Yeah. Or like be able to go to a restaurant. Because like am I going to take my shaker of vegan cheese parm? Probably not. Yeah. I mean I might.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:07

I've seen those people who have like the little hot sauce on this thing on their belt. You should start doing that with cheese.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:11

But like I should start bringing like a bag of Veolife and be like, can you hook me up in the back?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:19

So hopefully that makes progress.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:20

Fingers crossed.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:21

The last one is Solar Foods is making a ready to drink protein shake and they're making the protein from carbon dioxide.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:28

Oh, it's kind of like the one we told you about last week about I think it was similar, like making protein from greenhouse gases. Yeah, yeah. Making protein from the air.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:38

Yeah, pretty cool. It's going to be 90 calories with 12 grams of protein, which is really good. Four grams of fat, two grams of fiber.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:46

Exciting. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:47

It looks like they had a lot of flavors like mango, raspberry, some stuff like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:51

Yeah, it said it was like a little less sweet than some other drinks. Yeah. I'll be interested to try it if we can get our hands on it. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:58

I think the actual product is going to be called Solian protein. Yeah. Something like that. We'll let you know if we see it pop up anywhere. All right. Now let's get into the main segment here. So first of all, the important thing to know when we're talking about supplements is that a lot, probably most supplements don't really have proven benefits. So even the ones that do really work for like performance, for like, you know, trying to get gym progress, something like that, are just a couple of percentage points above what you would do without it. So you could really go without any supplements.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:28

Yeah. And I think a lot of them don't even really have to prove their claims, right? They can just like put wild outlandish claims on their packaging and they just kind of get away with it and like how are you going to prove them wrong i

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 5:38

Think the only regulation there is around like very specific medical claims like you can't be like this cures cancer yeah yeah but uh yeah beyond that they can make a lot of performance claims and you know basically aren't regulated like what is in the product as long as it's not toxic yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:53

Now i will say as like a content creator well i create recipes right but like i have like a presence on social media i get no less than like two emails per week from random ass supplement companies being like we'll give you this free shit and like you talk about our supplements and like you can make all this money when people use your affiliate code which is um yeah i'm not going to be doing that yeah supplements i can't be like promoting supplements like how long would i need to be on the supplements to even see tangible benefits but they don't want that they want you to like you're gonna get the package on monday and we want you to post about it on friday like yeah fuck you yeah

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 6:32

Like oh i took i took this vitamin and suddenly i feel better like if that if that happens you had a very severe deficiency right most of the time if you take a supplement you're not really gonna feel much at all yeah like with some of the performance ones you'll get um you know improvements over time but you're not it's gonna be really hard for you to be like i feel disordered.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 6:50

Yeah yeah and they give you like three days before they want you to post. So I just want you guys to keep that in mind when you see people, like, promoting shit on their pages on social media. They probably got the same deal. They're getting paid for this, and they've used it for maybe two days before they told you about it. So probably don't trust them. Yeah, maybe. I think that's, like, a pretty... A pretty fair, be skeptical.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:14

Yeah, for sure. The only supplements you might need to take, in quotes, are things that are like recommended or prescribed by your doctor to treat a specific deficiency. And the only caveat there is if you're a vegan, you do need to take B12 because you're not getting it really anywhere.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:26

Unless you're eating a lot of nutritional yeast and it's fortified.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:29

Yeah, you'll have to get supplementation in some form. That doesn't necessarily mean a pill. Like you were saying, you can get it through some fortified foods.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:35

Yeah, I think even vegan cheese.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:37

Yeah, vegan cheese has a lot of the time now. You will need to make sure you're getting it, though. That's the only one that's like definitely you have to figure it out. So, let's go through a few of the supplements that we do like and we do use. So, the first one is protein powder.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:50

I don't like it. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:53

I actually think of this as more of a food than a supplement, but it's very often lumped in with supplements.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:56

I do not know why it got lumped in with supplements. It's just like it's a portable food.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:01

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:02

I don't know. It's a food.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:03

It's a powdered food.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:04

It's just a food. I mean, they'd be like calling a protein bar a supplement.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:08

Now, some protein powders do include supplements in there. Like they'll throw in like taurine, a bunch of vitamins and weird stuff. But just protein in general is just, you know, it's food.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:17

Yeah, just food. Just powdered food.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:18

So you only really need this if you want to use it to make hitting your protein target easier. It's not, and I've seen a lot of people, like you see kids post on Reddit and stuff sometimes. They're like, my mom won't let me take protein because she thinks it's a steroid. Yeah. So there's a lot of like misunderstanding about protein powder having some kind of magical gem properties or something. But it's like if you eat 20 grams of protein powder, it's the same as if you'd eaten 20 grams of protein and like tofu or something.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:42

Now, I will say in college and stuff, I relied pretty heavily on protein powder because I was on like the student meal plan and there were hardly any options for because I was a vegetarian at the time. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, well, I kind of need protein powder because I don't have a kitchen or so like it helps convenience wise.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:59

Yeah. And I use protein powder pretty much every day just because I have a slightly higher protein target and it's a lot easier to get it. Yeah. And as far as protein percentage per calorie, it's really high. So it's definitely a good way to fit in the protein. But definitely not required.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:12

Yeah, or like if you're traveling, it's a really, I mean, we always bring it when we travel.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:16

Also, like not only the powder, but they have like the ready-to-drink shakes, kind of like we were talking about with Solar Foods. But there's a brand called OWYN, O-W-Y-N. They have some ready-to-drink shakes that are like 32 grams of protein for 200 calories. And they're pretty small. So it's just quick to drink them back and you get 32 grams of protein. So that kind of stuff can just be convenient, but it's definitely not a requirement.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:34

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:36

All right. Next up is creatine. So, this is kind of the most popular supplement probably for performance.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:45

Yeah. I've been seeing a lot of people talk about it, especially recently. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:49

So, in general, it's probably the most studied and the one with the most long-term safety data on it. Like, they've been doing studies on creatine for decades at this point, so they understand how it works long-term. Um, it's really the only one that has really strong evidence for improving strength and muscle gain over a long period of time. And, um, that usually shows up as like being able to do a little bit extra weight, a couple of extra reps per workout. And then over a period of time, that causes you to gain a little more muscle than you would have otherwise.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:19

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:21

So a couple of things about creatine. This is another one that shows up online a lot where somebody's parents think it's a steroid or they don't know if they can think of it or whatever. But a couple of things to know are, one, your body naturally produces a couple of grams of creatine a day. And then two, you get it from food anyway. So vegans, we don't really get that much from food. People who are not vegan get a lot from meat, probably three to four grams of creatine a day from meat. So for that reason, vegans can actually benefit more than non-vegans from taking the creatine supplement.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:48

Just because we're not getting naturally through food.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:50

Right. It would kind of make up the shortfall. And it's the same dose. Like most people can get away with just taking five grams a day continuously. And that'll saturate your muscles and do everything it's supposed to do. And you're just like starting at a lower level than a non-vegan. So you're basically bringing yourself up to kind of the performance standard.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:06

So what were all the benefits of creatine?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:10

Basically a little bit of muscle strength, a little bit of extra recovery, a little bit of extra muscle endurance.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:16

Doesn't it have some effect with your brain?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:18

Yeah, there are studies coming out more and more about like the cognitive benefits of creatine because your brain does use creatine. I think those are still pretty inconclusive, but they look pretty positive. There was actually a study for things that are stressful. So if you go into a stressful exam, taking creatine kind of before the exam did lead to some better outcomes.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:36

I'm sure I would have known that in high school.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:38

Yeah, so maybe if you're going in for like a test or you're going in for a job interview. Yeah, something like that. Make sure you're taking creatine the week leading up to that at least.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:46

That's interesting.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:47

Yeah. So we'll see how that all pans out, but it looks pretty promising.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:50

Um, so now I've heard about creatine loading.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:55

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:55

Is that, what is that?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:57

Creatine loading is just where you take basically 20 grams a day for the first week or so to cause the muscle saturation a little faster. And then you go back to the maintenance dose of five grams a day. There's nothing wrong with it, but for some people it can cause a little extra gastrointestinal distress.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:13

Is that why people say they fart a lot? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:15

They probably get really bloated.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:17

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:17

And then you're using a little more product, like you're using 20 grams a day instead of five grams a day, but it's only for a week or two. So that's kind of negligible.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:22

But like you'll eventually ramp up to where you need to be if you just do five though, right? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:26

A day? Something else that's crazy will make you gain a little bit of weight. So you'll be retaining a little extra water inside your muscles. So not like weight in your stomach. It'll be weight in your muscles, make them look bigger, basically. Yeah. So you're getting just extra gains, right? But if you do the loading phase, which is like 20 grams a day, you'll pick up all that weight a little quicker. So over that week or so, you'll gain probably like three to five pounds, something like that. And then you'll just stop gaining weight.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:49

And your tummy might hurt.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:50

And your tummy might hurt. Right. But if you just do five grams a day, that whole process will go a lot slower and you'll still eventually get to saturation anyway. So it's definitely not required. Some people like to do it just to get the benefit a little faster. But long term, we're talking about like speeding it up by two weeks for something you're going to take for years and years.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:07

So now if you don't lift weights and maybe you don't even really work out that much, would you still recommend creatine?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:16

Yeah, I think because of the potential cognitive benefits and because as vegans, we're kind of always working with a lower baseline. I think there's definitely an argument to just take creatine no matter what all the time, as long as you tolerate it well. Some people do get kind of stomach issues. So one thing you want to do with creatine is drink extra water.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:33

Because it's like sucking up water, basically.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:36

So you'll have less of the kind of side effects if you drink more water.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:41

Well, okay, so I saw something kind of interesting, which will be a surprise to basically no one that lives on the planet Earth. But apparently this hasn't been studied very widely on women. Yeah. And so I saw something that said that if you are predisposed to endometriosis or you're living with endometriosis, it could potentially make it worse.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:59

Yeah, I have seen some stuff about this recently. So if that's something you think you're dealing with, I'd probably skip the creatine. Just, again, because, like, even when it works, it's a pretty minor benefit. So, it's definitely not worth making something like endometriosis worse.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 14:14

Yeah. It does run in my family. So, now that I've seen that, I'm probably not going to take it anymore. Yeah. Just in case. Because, like, it's kind of genetic, you know. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 14:23

And they also say, like, something like 15 to 20% of people don't respond to creatine. Yeah. Especially as far as, I don't know if this applies to the cognitive stuff, but as far as the performance benefits, they're basically called creatine non-responders. And I think a lot of that is still being studied, but it does seem like some percentage of people just don't really get the benefits of creatine.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 14:41

Yeah. So, like, there's still, like, I feel like if you think you might be someone who has endometriosis or, like, there's a high potential in your family history where you might have endometriosis, I probably wouldn't take it. Because basically what I read is it can make it grow more. Yeah. which obviously you don't want it to grow more. Right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 15:01

Yeah. No, I think that's reasonable advice. Something else you can do if creatine has given you a lot of GI issues is try some of the different forms. Normally, you'd recommend just the normal cheap creatine monohydrate. It's like the most studied version. It's effective. Fine. But there are a couple of other forms like creatine HCL or creatine hydrochloride, that basically can cause a little less digestive issues. And the original intent of creatine hydrochloride was you also take a smaller dose. I think it's a two gram dose. So it was supposed to be cheaper, but they actually ended up making that product kind of premium and it costs more per dose anyway. So that didn't really work out. But it can, for some people, cause less digestive issues.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 15:39

I saw someone recommending this on Reddit and I didn't have the context that they were talking about creatine and they just said HCL, which is like the chemical formula for hydrochloric acid, which is like really, you shouldn't. Yeah. Not good, right?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 15:55

Very small amount of hydrochloric acid.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 15:57

But I was like reading this comment. It was like, you should take HCL. And I'm just like, oh, what are we doing here?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:07

Yeah. So I think long story short on creatine, if you're in the gym, definitely if you're a vegan and if you're not dealing with endometriosis, I'd probably find some cheap creatine monohydrate try five grams a day. See how you tolerate it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:18

Yeah. And if anyone that's listening is involved in studies, maybe include some fucking women in your studies from once in a while. Yeah. So we have data.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:29

Later on, we do mention a study with a lot of women.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:31

Well, it's about time. All right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:35

And again, this is only if you're already like wondering what supplements to try. I'm not like saying everybody should try creatine, but if you're interested in it, these are the situations in which you might take it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:44

Yeah. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:46

All right.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:46

You don't need any of this.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:48

Right. Again, you do not need any of this. The next one up is citrulline malate. So citrulline, also sold as L-citrulline, is a nitric oxide booster similar to something like arginine or beetroot powder. And basically what that does is dilate your blood vessels, makes them bigger.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:04

What blood vessels does it make bigger?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:07

Pretty much all of them, actually. So anyway, yeah, it helps dilate your blood vessels. And if you're having, you know, blood circulation issues anywhere, this can probably help a little bit. That's also the main ingredient in a non-stimulant pre-workout. So typically if you have a pre-workout, that's like really heavy on caffeine a lot of the time. And caffeine is like.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:25

Oh, it's so crazy on caffeine.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:27

Far and away the most effective ingredient in a pre-workout anyway. And it's like very high dose of caffeine.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:30

It's like 300, 400 milligrams of caffeine. Yeah. And people are dry scooping it. Oh, my God, don't do that. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:38

But there's a whole other category of pre-workout that's like non-stimulant pre-workout. It's like no caffeine. Like I personally haven't had caffeine in like 10 years. So this is something I have.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:46

I know. You're better than all of us.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:48

No. I mean, I guess I get a little bit from chocolate and stuff sometimes, but nothing like intentional. So, yeah. Anyway, non-stimulant pre-workouts use citrulline as their main ingredient to help dilate the blood muscles. There's actually not like a ton of evidence that this helps a lot. But, you know, theoretically, it makes sense that it could help with like recovery and things like that. So it's kind of mixed results. I think this will be studied more over time. It's actually been studied quite a bit already. But I think there needs to be some specific studies for like, does this really help with gym performance? But, you know, it's something worth trying. It also can help lower blood pressure and improve general circulation. So there's not really much of a downside. So try it out and see how you like it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:26

You know what else I heard is really good at lowering blood pressure?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:29

What's that?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:30

Hibiscus tea.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:31

Oh, yeah. I have heard that, and I tried that for a little while.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:34

Did you see any evidence of it?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:37

I didn't try it long enough to actually measure, but I think those studies on that are pretty.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:40

Yeah, like hibiscus tea actually is supposed to be good for a lot of different things. Yeah. Blood pressure, I think, can it help with like diabetes stuff?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:49

Oh, blood sugar spikes and stuff?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:50

I think it helps with blood sugar spikes.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:52

Yeah, I don't want to speak too authoritatively on that, but I've read some stuff about that. Yeah. Look into it. It's interesting. A lot of the herbal teas actually have surprisingly decent evidence around what they do. There's also a lot of herbal teas that do nothing at all.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:04

Yeah, sure, sure.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:05

But they taste nice.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:07

Yeah, I don't know. Totally off topic, but like the How Not to Die book goes into a lot of this stuff. Yeah. In detail and talks about more of like a natural way to do this stuff. It's not really, you wouldn't be shopping at like GNC, you'd be shopping at like Whole Foods. Right. For like teas and spices and shit.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:24

Yeah, like I mentioned for this one, citrulline, the kind of natural alternative for that is beets or beetroot. Yeah. Beetroot powder, stuff like that. You can definitely, it does basically exactly the same thing. I think it's more expensive though. But yeah. Um, yeah. Next up is ashwagandha. So this one I think is, um, I don't know if controversial is the right word, but I think there's...

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:43

I've heard, I think it is controversial. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:45

And I definitely don't think there are any like major benefits, but it seems like the more studies that they do on it, the more it seems like it does help with some stuff. The most notable benefit of it is that it can help lower cortisol and stress in general. Yeah. I'd like to take it daily just for that kind of benefit.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 20:00

Do you take it every day?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:01

Um, I don't know. I forget sometimes.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 20:02

Do you cycle?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:03

Yeah. Unintentionally kind of, because I'll just forget for a week. Okay. Some of the new studies are showing that it potentially helps with strength in your VO2 max, which is a cardiovascular marker. It can also potentially affect thyroid hormone levels. So if you have thyroid issues, you might be careful with this.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 20:17

Well, I don't have a thyroid.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:20

But yeah, like you mentioned, many people do cycle it as a precaution. Cycle just means like you take it for a month and then you don't take it for two weeks. That's mostly due to limited long-term safety information. So ashwagandha has not been studied for like long-term use necessarily. It's mostly studied for like 12-week use, and that's where they see the benefits. Um, but it's not entirely clear. And that doesn't mean it's like dangerous long-term. We just don't know yet. So take it for 12 weeks, get off of it for maybe even another 12 weeks, something like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 20:47

The main thing that I've read is like, it makes you basically a zombie. Yeah. An emotionless black pit, black hole of a zombie.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:55

Yeah. I don't know how much of that is placebo that we're now contributing to by people reading about this side effect. Cause it doesn't, that doesn't come up in any of the studies I've seen, but people do talk about that a lot.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:05

People talk about it a lot. They're like, you need like an anti-anxiety medication, just take ashwagandha and you won't feel anything.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:11

Some people report it as like feeling emotionally flat or like almost sedated if they take it for a while. Which can be a little unsettling. So if you take it and you feel that, it's probably not worth it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:22

Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to feel the range of emotions, you know? Yeah. I want to cry for 30 minutes when I watch King Kong. Yeah. I think that's a real normal reaction.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:31

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:32

Reaction.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:33

You should always check with a doctor before starting any new supplement, but probably this one in particular because it has some weird interactions with, like, liver conditions, autoimmune disorders, thyroid issues, pregnancy, some stuff like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:46

So are you telling people they should or shouldn't take this?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:49

I'm not telling them either one of those. I'm just saying this is something I think is interesting. And it does have, you know, like I said, the studies are coming out saying it looks a little better for strength gains. So I do take it. And I also take it as more of like a relaxation cortisol, which it does have pretty good.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:03

You do have a lot of stress, so.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:05

I think everybody has a lot of stress.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:06

You live with me.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:09

But yeah, so no, that was, I started taking it a while back when I had, you know, a couple years ago, I had like a high inflammation thing come back on a blood test. So it was like one of a couple of things I started taking to try to lower that and I just stuck with it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:21

And he cries pretty regularly, so I don't think it's affecting him. He is not a zombie.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:28

Yeah. It also has been shown to have some very slight, basically meaningless increase on testosterone levels. So you'll see people say, like, what can I do to boost my testosterone? And people will be like, ashwagandha, bro. And it, like, technically increases at a few points, but, like, a completely meaningless amount.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:43

Not in a meaningless amount. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:44

And for the record, no supplement really increases testosterone in a meaningful amount.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:49

Meat, right? That's what I keep reading.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:51

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:52

Meat makes you have higher testosterone. Is that not true?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:55

I don't think that's true, no. A healthy diet can help you have better testosterone and, you know, sleeping well and keeping your stress down and things like that. Anyway, next up is magnesium, specifically magnesium glycinate is the one that I tend to like. So this is one that actually vegans get more magnesium than non-vegans. Oh. That's interesting. That's interesting. Because we eat more plants and the plants are where the magnesium is most of the time. but no matter what your diet is something like 60 of americans don't get enough magnesium and that's not like a deficiency that's just like a sub optimal measure of magnesium basically and then also if you're exercising you can have even less magnesium because you lose a lot through sweat that's interesting yeah so.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 23:43

I've heard okay there's a couple forms of magnesium right yeah and there's one called magnesium citrate but i heard that people call it magnesium shitrate because it like makes you

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 23:55

Shit. Yeah. So magnesium citrate is actually a laxative. It's like if you go buy a laxative at the store, sometimes it'll just be a really high dose of magnesium citrate.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 24:03

So don't pick that one.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 24:04

So I wouldn't pick that one. I mean, it's good. Like there's also some stuff where it's like citrate can maybe help with kidney stones. So maybe you would want to take magnesium citrate or like a calcium citrate. If some people, if you're taking a calcium supplement for some reason, you usually would take a citrate version. But yeah. So I use something like magnesium glycinate just because the glycine also has some benefits. So I think that's a really common problem.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 24:27

Okay, so this is one I take, and I do actually feel like I sleep better when I'm taking it regularly. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 24:33

So the magnesium helps on its own, but actually the glycine specifically, I think there was a Japanese study that showed, like, how it helps you sleep is that it lowers your core body temperature by dilating the blood vessels in your extremities. So more of the blood goes to the extremities and away from the core, and it lowers your body temperature.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 24:51

Wow.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 24:51

Yeah, so that helps with sleep.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 24:53

Interesting. Yeah. So do that instead of… Um,

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 24:57

Melatonin.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 24:58

Yeah. Do that instead of melatonin. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:01

I don't know. The melatonin is an interesting one. I definitely wouldn't recommend it. I think there were a long time it was, they were saying don't take melatonin because it can dysregulate your sleep cycle. I think some of the new stuff was coming out saying like that doesn't really happen, but I'm still, I'm not on the melatonin train.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 25:17

Okay. So I had never even heard of melatonin until like, I don't know, like 10 years ago when I was working with this guy and he was talking about how he had kids and how he would give them melatonin gummies to go to sleep because they like wouldn't go to sleep yeah and i was on a turnaround so i was like working night shift and so i was like oh i never heard of melatonin like i'm gonna try this because i cannot sleep during the day at all yeah and so i took it and it like knocks you out so fast at least it knocked me out so fast but then i would wake up and i was still like exhausted yeah so that's just my anecdotal uh story i

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:53

Did yeah i tried it once It was basically like NyQuil where it's like, yeah, you go to sleep, but then you didn't really feel like you slept. You're just groggy.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 26:00

Yeah. I just like would wake up like, oh, I could have slept another four hours probably. Yeah. But that could have also been because I was on turnaround.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 26:07

Right. And then next up is L-theanine. So this one isn't really like a performance supplement. The thing it's most effective for is like stress and anxiety reduction, but it also can help with sleep a little bit. It kind of promotes relaxation is the way that it's phrased. It's not really a sedative. But I'll tell you what, when I take L-theanine, like an hour later, I feel like I took a sedative.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 26:28

Yeah, I know. I'm like, dude, we're watching TV. Why are you falling asleep? It's 830. Open your damn eyes. I want to finish this episode.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 26:40

But yeah, one interesting thing about L-theanine is that it has been shown that it can intensify your dreams, which.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 26:47

I don't need that.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 26:48

Yeah. So if you have something like that, maybe don't take it. Maybe don't take it anyway. But, you know, I sometimes take like a little bit of time to fall asleep in the first place. Yeah. And so I take, like typically I'll take like the ashwagandha, the magnesium glycinate, and the L-theanine kind of together like an hour before that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:05

Yeah, you might as well just smoke weed.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:08

Yeah, that probably would be helpful.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:10

I don't know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:12

Yeah. So that can help you just kind of get relaxed and get ready to go to sleep.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:17

What about chamomile? Isn't that supposed to be something kind of similar to this? Like it makes you kind of like sleepy. They always put it in like nighttime teas.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:25

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:26

What do you think about that?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:27

I haven't looked into that much and I've never actually tried that, but I know a lot of people do do that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:31

I can't do hot liquids, so I've never tried chamomile tea. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:34

And again, like none of this stuff, you might notice no difference at all when you try to go to sleep with these things. And you don't really need any of this stuff. These aren't actual sedatives.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:42

Yeah. More like if you're having trouble, maybe these things would help.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:45

Maybe. Yeah. Try it out. Just a couple of things to try that have some evidence, but aren't game changers, you know.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:51

Okay. I'm about to ask you some weird ones.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:53

Okay.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:54

Okay. The mushroom extracts that they sell, like very, very expensive mushroom extract type stuff. What do you think about that?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:02

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think there's a lot of evidence behind those. And I know for some reason, whenever I take lion's mane more than like three days in a row, I start getting dizzy.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 28:13

Dude, me too. Yeah, we bought like a kit of like various mushroom extracts and that lion's made made me feel super dizzy. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:23

I didn't realize that's what it was the first time. Like we were taking the mushroom things for a while and then I was like at the gym and I was like, wow, I'm like the room is spinning all of a sudden. That's weird. And so I was just like, whatever. And it went away. And then, like, I didn't take the mushroom things for a while. And then I went back and, like, tried them. And the same thing happened. And I was like, okay, is it these weird mushroom things? And then, like, a couple months later, I tried something else with lion's mane. And I took it. I think it was, like, I think it was some kind of nootropic brain supplement thing, like alpha brain or something. I was just trying it out. And it had lion's mane. I don't know if it was the actual. I don't want to talk bad about the product. I can't remember if it was that one or not. But it was something like that. So, anyway, it had lion's mane. And I took it for, like, a week. And then I had the same thing happen. And it was like dizzy. I was like, okay, I guess this lion's mane stuff does not agree with me. So, yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:10

The extract. You can probably eat the mushrooms.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:13

Yeah, yeah. The extract is like concentrated.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:14

Yeah, highly concentrated.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:16

So, yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:17

It's like a drop a day or some shit.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:18

But even aside from that issue, I think there's not a lot of evidence for these mushroom extracts.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:22

And they're really expensive.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:23

Yeah, they're crazy expensive.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:25

Yeah, I remember I bought us each like one of those like kits just to try them. Because you see people talking about it. I get intrigued. I buy things. I notice no discernible difference.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:35

That's how we can tell you guys what doesn't work.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:38

Anecdotally, I mean, they could work for some people. I don't know. Yeah. Didn't work for me.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:41

Well, this is another one of those things. It's like kind of like we were talking about earlier. It's like you take this thing. You're not going to feel if it's working or not. Yeah. So you just kind of have to be like, okay, I guess this is supposed to do healthy things for me.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 29:52

Exactly. That's pretty much why I refused to partner with any supplement brands. I'm just like, I really don't want to lie to people for money.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 29:59

Right. So, yeah. The sleep combo of those three has helped me fall asleep a little faster.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:04

I can attest to this. He falls asleep faster than I would like.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:10

You take him too early.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:12

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:13

Anyway. And then the next one is kind of like the multivitamin, multimineral category. This can be useful, especially for vegans, because, you know, we have everything we need in plants. But sometimes your diet gets a little repetitive or, you know, you're going a while with like not eating the specific thing, these specific nutrients, whatever.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:30

Or you're like new and you really haven't figured out exactly like what to eat to fill like the gaps that were left from like your omnivore diet before you went vegan. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:40

And things like that. And there are a lot of things that, even if it's not a deficiency, vegans are shown to be a little lower in general. So it's not dangerous, but maybe you'd feel a little better if you could get the levels up a little bit.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:51

And sometimes it's just nice to have that, like, feeling of insurance policy.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:56

Which, by the way, multivitamin is very popular for non-vegans. Oh, I know. All throughout time, people have been taking multivitamin.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:02

It's so funny. Like, when you go vegan... People just start berating you about, oh, at least I don't have to live off vitamins. It's like, you probably freaking take vitamins, bro.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:12

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:12

What are you talking about? I bet your parents gave you Flintstone vitamins. Shut the hell up.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:17

I would guess there are very few adults who have never taken multivitamins for any period of time.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:23

Yeah. I can't imagine. I was taking multivitamins before I went vegan. Like on a vegetarian diet, I always took multivitamins.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:30

I had old catnid of stuff before I was vegan.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:33

I've always taken multivitamins.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:34

You know what's funny is I actually take less, like, vitamin and minerals and supplements and stuff now than I did before I was vegan. Yeah. Just because I found out, like, how much stuff really doesn't do anything. Right. But also because we get a lot more from food now.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:47

Right. Yeah. Yeah, because all vitamins are originally coming from plants.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:52

Yeah. So some of the things that you might look for in, like, a multivitamin as a vegan are, like, zinc is a little lower, iron, iodine is a little lower. This is another one, iodine, you might be careful with if you have a thyroid thing. It has some interactions there. You can also just do iodized salt. You don't have to have an iodine supplement.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:10

But like, yeah, if you have thyroid stuff, look into it. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:14

Ask your doctor. Ask your endocrinologist, actually. Don't just look into it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:17

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:19

Then, you know, the B12, we've talked about. Selenium, another interesting one.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:22

Is that the one that's in Brazil nuts? Yeah. Apparently, you can only take one Brazil nut a day. That is like your entire selenium dosage. And if you eat more than that, that would be not good.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:32

Yeah. And then you can also kind of lump in omega-3. That's not a vitamin. It's a fat. But it's always like right there with the vitamins.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:38

It gets lumped in with vitamins, yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:40

So, yeah, that kind of thing. You might, you know, consider having a multivitamin, multimineral supplement that has some of those things.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:46

Just to round those out.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:48

Yeah. Another one is calcium. So vegans, we get a little less calcium. We absorb a little less of the calcium we do get. Yeah. But, you know, there are also issues with taking calcium supplements. Those can cause issues.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:02

Kidney stones.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 33:03

Kidney stones. I think even like some cardiovascular stuff potentially.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:06

Yeah. But also like low calcium can make you more susceptible to osteoporosis. So it's like a.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 33:12

You definitely want to get the calcium. I just wouldn't do it in a supplement. You can do it. The way I like to get most of mine is like with the fortified plant milk. kind of like the same way you get calcium as a non-vegan for the most part is with milk, and then you know leafy greens leafy greens have some calcium yeah but uh i wouldn't recommend probably taking a supplement for this unless your doctor tells you to obviously yeah but i would just try to maybe use the milks i.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:35

Think you know maybe if you're like um you know middle-aged older woman ask your doctor about it though yeah because i heard that um women are more susceptible to osteoporosis and like bone density issues. Yeah. Especially, okay, this is kind of off topic, but did you know that when you're pregnant, the baby sucks the fucking calcium out of you?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 33:56

I've heard something like that, yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:57

I had a friend that got like 12 cavities from being pregnant because they just sucked the calcium out of her teeth. Yeah. Is that not insane?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:05

That's pretty insane.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:06

That's insane. Anyway, that's why I'm not having kids. Yeah. That stuff's crazy. Yeah. So anyways, you probably want that, you know, if you're pregnant, maybe. I don't know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:17

Yeah. Oh, also another good source of calcium for vegans is that a lot of tofu is what's called calcium set. Yeah. Like they make it firm with a calcium base. And that's really good calcium, actually. So there you go. Another one that's kind of tricky for vegans, and I'm going to mention it separately, is vitamin A. There are a couple of really good sources of vitamin A, like sweet potatoes, carrots, squash, and spinach, basically things that are orange.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:39

Yeah, yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:40

Like even one sweet potato a day basically gives you all your vitamin A.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:44

Yeah, I think it's like a cup of carrots will mostly give you your vitamin A. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:48

But if you don't eat orange things a lot, it's actually pretty hard to get. That's true. If you're not on a pretty regular diet of like sweet potatoes, carrots, and squash, you might consider making sure your multivitamin has vitamin A in there.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:59

Now, I had someone that looked kind of like a wellness grifter recently come in my comment section telling me that unless you're getting retinol vitamin A, it doesn't count.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 35:10

Yeah, I mean, it counts. It's just, it's one of those things where it's, Like the conversion is different, right? So you need, there's two different guidelines. So there's, you get this amount if it's retinol, you get this amount if it's the- Beta carotene. Beta carotene, yeah. And so, you know, whatever that form is, you get it from the sweet potatoes and the squash and whatever. So, I mean, you'll see different supplements are set up in different ways too. So, yes, there are two different forms, but no, it's not true that one of them doesn't count. It's like omega-3. Yeah. Technically, the omega-3 that you need is EPA and DHA, but most of the vegan sources like flaxseed and stuff use ALA, which your body converts into DHA and EPA. Yeah. But you can also just eat algae, which is DHA and EPA directly, or algae oil.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 35:59

Right. I find this interesting because it's like, if you're getting vitamin A from meat, which I assume is what this lady was trying to say. Right. Like where did you, where do you think your animals are getting vitamin A from? Because it's plants.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 36:13

Right.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 36:13

That's where it comes from. Yeah. It's just, they did the, you know, breakdown of vitamin A to retinol for you. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 36:20

The other one is iron. Like technically the iron that comes from animals is heme iron and the iron you get from plants is non-heme iron, which is, you know, you lose some of the conversion or how your body uses iron. So you need a little more non-heme iron, but that doesn't mean like the non-heme iron doesn't count.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 36:36

Right. Yeah. Just need a little bit more. People are living healthy vegan lives. So this is obviously not true. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 36:43

And the trick for iron specifically, for vegans, if you just take some vitamin C with your iron, that really boosts the absorption of it. Very helpful.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 36:52

I've always had low iron. Even when I was a vegetarian, I had low iron.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 36:56

Yeah. And then, not to plug a specific product, but I'm going to plug a specific product.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 37:00

But we're not sponsored because our podcast is pretty small.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 37:04

Not sponsored. There's just one I really like. It's called a Holier. Yeah. W-H-O-L-I-E-R. And they are a multivitamin made specifically for vegans, basically. And it just has like six or seven things in it. It doesn't have a whole bunch of stuff that's going to turn your pee neon yellow and be a total waste of money. So they have a couple of things that vegans are a little less likely to get. And it's a nice little, very simple insurance policy for some of the little things you might miss out on.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 37:31

Yeah. This is the one I've been taking for, I don't know, we both have been taking it for a couple of years now. Yeah. But they'll send you like, your first one will come in like a glass jar and then you'll get, I think they're like biodegradable packaging.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 37:42

Yeah, for the refills.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 37:43

For the refills. And so you can get like subscriptions that'll make it like a little cheaper. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 37:47

And it doesn't seem like it's much more of a price difference than like a central multivitamin or whatever the major brands are. It's pretty much the same.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 37:55

I like that with a lot of vitamins, if you're trying to make sure you're getting a vegan vitamin, you have to make sure they don't have gelatin tabs. Yeah. So it's just nice buying from a vegan company that's like, obviously they're not using, you don't have to really look at any of that stuff to know it's going to be vegan.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 38:10

Yeah. And they're all dosed well. they like on their website they talk about like why they picked which dosage for each one and they like way overdose vitamin b12 because vitamin b12 yeah it's weird for everybody i remember back when i was originally taking vitamin b12 you take the ones you stick under your tongue yeah yeah so i mean a little stuff like that but i think it's a really good product so yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 38:28

I think basically the only thing i currently take is like magnesium the holier multivitamin and then i take an iron supplement because my i think i'm just kind of anemic by nature no matter what i eat i'm always He's kind of low on iron, so... What do you take?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 38:44

I basically take the whole ear for the multivitamin. And I take an omega-3 on its own just to try to get a little extra. And then basically some of the supplements we were talking about here, like the nighttime stuff, I take those three combined. And then citrulline and protein is pretty much it. Oh, creatine, obviously.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:02

Creatine, yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:03

So, yeah. I mean, I've taken a lot of other stuff over the years, but most of it's just gone now. Like glutamine, turns out glutamine is basically useless. So, don't buy glutamine anymore. Nothing like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:13

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:15

I do like Ghost has a pre-workout that has the citrulline in it and also has taurine and a couple of vitamins. So I like that mainly just because I like having something that tastes fruity before my workout or whatever. So I like that because it combines a couple of things. But, you know, just kind of keep it pretty simple. Some specific things of note that you might not want to go down that are extremely popular.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:37

Very popular.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:38

One is peptides.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:39

I see that everywhere.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:40

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:41

It's like apparently it can solve all of your life problems.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:44

Yeah, there's like peptides for everything. Peptides for muscle repair, peptides for hair.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:48

Yeah, I see. Anytime I see someone with a problem, there's some like wellness grifter in the comment section being like, well, have you logged on the peptides?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:56

And in theory, I mean, maybe they'll pan out or some of them will pan out anyway. I'm sure some of them will pan out. But it basically like just gives your body instructions to do specific things. So the theory behind it is okay. But so far, there's like really limited safety data on any of these. These are all pretty new things that are starting to be studied. And there's like really limited data on effectiveness. I don't think there are any peptides out there right now that are like proven to actually do the thing. There's like mixed studies on everything. It's like sometimes they do the thing. Sometimes they do nothing. Sometimes they cause negative side effects.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:29

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:29

And then like long-term safety data just doesn't exist. So peptides specifically, I think my recommendation would be like just forget these exist for five or ten years and then revisit the current studies at that point.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:39

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:40

And I'm sure a couple of them will be like, okay, that did something. I don't know if there'll be magic or anything. The one, I guess the, I should make a caveat to that, that like Ozempic, the GLP-1 agonists and stuff, those are peptides and those are kind of like magic.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:54

Yeah, that's true.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:55

But that's not the kind of peptide you'll typically see pushed on social media.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:58

Right. Those are, that's the kind of peptide you need a prescription for. Whereas like the stuff I'm seeing is like, you can go to GNC or wherever and buy it.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:08

Peptideblackmarket.com.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:09

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:10

That's not a real website. I'm just making, oh, it might be, I don't know.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:15

Well, hey, maybe if they're doing current studies on it, they could, I don't know, include some women in those studies and maybe study this stuff on women. So we know if it's safe for us to use.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:24

Yeah, that'd be nice. The other one that gets pushed a lot is collagen.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:27

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This one is so, okay, sorry. This one's so annoying to me because what's that one product, all the fitness influencers? Yeah, all the vegan fitness influencers push veg over and over and over again. That's all you see. I've never tried veg. Don't know if it's any good. But apparently they came out with the first ever vegan collagen. So that's all they're all pushing. And it drives me insane. So continue with your thought.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:49

So collagen in general does seem to have some promising minor benefits for like skin hydration, skin elasticity, maybe something for like hair, something like that, hair health. So like things that I personally could give a shit less about, to be perfectly honest.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:05

Aesthetic things.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:06

Yeah, aesthetic things. But the downside there is that collagen is specifically from animals. So there's not really a vegan collagen. You'll see a lot of supplements that say vegan collagen. And usually if you read the box or something, I'll describe it in more detail. But basically what that does is boost your body's natural production of collagen because you do make collagen inside your body. So it'll give you like vitamin C is a big thing that boosts collagen. And there's a bunch of other like vitamins and little nutrients and stuff that kind of promote and make sure your body has everything it needs to make the collagen from amino acids. So that's typically what a vegan collagen supplement does. Now, the Veg Vegan Collagen Supplement specifically says that it is actual vegan collagen made from, I think it's some kind of process from broccoli and carrots or something. But I'm not sure that that is even really vegan collagen. They reference a research paper for their product, or at least that their product is based on that same theory. And even that research paper is basically like collagen boosting. It's not really like a direct collagen. So, I'm not really sure, but even if it does work, it's really minor benefits for, like, skin hydration. But vegan collagen is pushed a lot as, like, joint and connective tissue stuff and, like, muscle stuff, which it hasn't been shown to really be helpful for. So, I think there's a lot going on there. And I think there is a lot of research going on with collagen, and it does look interesting. But I'm not sure that vegans will really ever get the benefits of that if it does pan out.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 43:42

Unless they come up with, like, some kind of...

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 43:45

Yeah, there are some ways, apparently, with, like, they call it, like, recombinant, where you're kind of, like, making it again in a lab. Yeah, yeah. Maybe even with precision fermentation or something like that. But that doesn't look like it's what veg is doing.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 43:56

But it wouldn't even be, like... It'd be like vegan actual animal collagen, but it made in a vegan way. Yeah, exactly.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 44:03

Yeah, yeah. So that doesn't appear to be what Veg is using. No. And I don't think there are any collagens out there right now that are like a vegan version that's bio-identical to the animal collagen.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 44:14

So I would say if you're seeing a vegan collagen push.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 44:18

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 44:18

Be skeptical. Yeah. And I mean, I guess you can give people the benefit of the doubt that they're completely unaware of that. But then also then why are they pushing it without knowing what they're pushing? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 44:27

And if you have a deficiency in some of those, and like you're not having enough protein or you have a deficiency in some of those nutrients, maybe it will boost your body's production of collagen. But you could also just take a multivitamin and eat more protein. Yeah. And kind of get the same effect.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 44:41

And save money.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 44:42

Yeah. So, yeah, that's one where it's a little bit of a weird space because the claims they make don't quite match what it actually does. Yeah. And then also you don't really need it because your body's already making collagen. So, there's a lot of weird stuff going on.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 44:57

I almost feel like they should have to call it a collagen booster. Yeah. I feel like it's...

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 45:01

Well, it's a completely unregulated market because it's sucking.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 45:03

Yeah, I know. It just seems incredibly misleading. Yeah. And then, like, I've seen a few people try to have those conversations in the comment section with the creator, and they double down, and they're like, it's vegan collagen. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, I guess I'm going to give you the benefit of that, that you don't know what you're talking about, but also maybe you're just trying to make money. I don't know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 45:23

And I'm not a biologist, but from what I've read, you know, it appears that there's not a great way to make real collagen from plants like that. And again, if you're deficient in these things, even veg, vegan collagen, whatever, may have some benefits for your collagen production. So anyway, moving on. So I think that's pretty much it for the kind of interesting, more effective, or more noteworthy supplements.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 45:49

And if you have any questions on anything we didn't talk about, or if you have questions on anything we did talk about, just like leave a comment or send us a message. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 45:56

So now let's get into our myth of the week. The myth of the week this week is that phytic acid means plants don't give you nutrients. So, you may have heard, and if you're a vegan on the internet, you've definitely heard the kind of take that plants are anti-nutrient.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 46:15

Yeah, I've heard that.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 46:17

So, what that comes from is plants have something called phytates, which is phytic acid. And phytates are mostly found in whole grains, seeds, and legumes. okay so that's why you'll see a lot of like pasta and oatmeal hate stuff like that because of the phytates so phytates do technically reduce the absorption of other things that you're eating them with but it doesn't block the absorption of all of it something else you should know is that a lot of preparation methods like soaking fermentation cooking etc, pretty substantially reduce the amount of phytates in the food anyway.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 46:53

Yeah, because you're probably not eating whole grains raw.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 46:56

Yeah. So it also only affects nutrients in the same meal. So if this is something where you're like dealing with a deficiency or you're just really concerned about this, you can kind of strategically pick which foods to eat with which things. The two big things that are like most affected by this are iron and zinc. So if you're like anemic or have a zinc deficiency or something like that, maybe you would eat your iron in a different meal than you eat your whole greens or you would just take like the vitamin C with the iron, like I was saying before, that basically boosts it right back up to where it needs to be. So you could do some of that. But at the same time, the reduction is only around like 25% for a lot of these. So this is not something where it's like you're not getting any of the iron you ate. Yeah. It's just a reduction.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 47:40

That's interesting because the way I hear it is like, Like, basically, plants destroy all nutrients, and you're going to die if you're a vegan. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 47:47

If it's a situation where you're already kind of low on iron all the time, and then you become a vegan, now you're only getting non-heme iron, which has a little bit of a conversion issue. And then you're eating your non-heme iron with, like, raw whole grains or something somehow, or raw seeds even, if you're eating your seeds with iron. Then, yeah, I mean, maybe you run into an issue where you're not absorbing quite as much as you should be. But with a couple of things like, you know, eating your iron with a different meal or eating it with vitamin C or something like that, you're like, you're way back above baseline anyway. So it's like something you might have to think about in very specific situations, but it's not something where it's like nobody could be vegan because you don't get iron anymore.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 48:25

Right. And also, like, if you're anemic, your doctor is probably going to tell you to be on an iron supplement anyway. Like, I've been on an iron supplement for like over a decade because my doctor told me to be on one.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 48:36

Yeah, it's another one of those things where this is somehow presented as a vegan-specific problem.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 48:40

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 48:41

Where iron and zinc supplements have been used for a long time by non-vegans. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 48:47

I take my iron all by itself at night because if I take it in the morning or like it makes me nauseous. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 48:53

Something else to know is that phytic acid also potentially has some benefits. So it's been shown to potentially be an antioxidant and potentially one of the anti-cancer compounds.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 49:03

That's interesting. You never hear the anti-nutrient wellness grifters talking about that.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 49:08

Yeah. So it's not something you want to try to avoid, even if you could.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 49:11

Yeah. Well, I mean, that makes sense, right? Like, why would you be avoiding whole grains, seeds, and legumes? They're incredibly healthy for you.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 49:18

Yeah. Phytic acid has also been shown to lower cholesterol, slow digestion, which will help you keep fuller longer, and prevent blood sugar spikes, which, you know, somebody like a diabetic obviously has concerns with. But a lot of people have concerns with anyway, even if they don't necessarily need to. So, I mean, there's a lot of positive benefits from the phytates and you might have to navigate some slightly reduced absorption. But actually, for most people who are not like actually anemic, it's going to be a non-issue. And if you're eating enough food, it's going to be a non-issue. This is something where it's going to be like compounded by being on a deficit. But if you're somebody who's just like an athlete, eating a lot of food, doing normal life, this is not going to really come into play for you most of the time. And also, one study showed, at least, that your body may kind of compensate by increasing your mineral absorption if you do a kind of a phytate-rich diet for a long time.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:09

Oh, that's interesting.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:10

In general, your body's pretty good about figuring shit out over time. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:13

They really like to eat beans. I better figure this out. Yeah, exactly. So we don't die.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:18

So they actually showed if you're eating phytates a lot, then your body will just start absorbing more iron and zinc and calcium and magnesium, some of those other things that are slightly affected. And so it'll just make up the difference.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:29

It'll be a wash.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:32

And then also, phytates have been associated with a 63% decreased risk of kidney stone formation in a study that had 96,000 women in it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:40

Whoa, that's where all the women went. They went into just this study.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:44

Yeah, I think it was called Nurses Health Study 2, I think is the name of this study.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:48

That's really interesting.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:49

63%. It was like women, I think they were 20 to 40 years old, so on the younger side.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:53

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 50:54

But 63% reduction in kidney stone risk from a high phytate diet.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 50:58

Kidney stones hurt, so eat your phytates. Right. All right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 51:01

So a lot of benefits there. You wouldn't want to avoid them. And it seems like for most people, the reduction in absorption is going to be pretty minimal. And there are easy strategies to get around it if it is something you're dealing with. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 51:14

I think it's like once again, any of the like vitamins and minerals that people who are saying this anti-nutrient plant thing, any of the vitamins and minerals they're getting from animals, the animals got from plants. Right. And then they did all the work of like digesting that for you. And now you're just stealing. Basically, you're just stealing all of the work their digestive system and their bodies did.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 51:38

Basically.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 51:39

To like process plant foods. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 51:42

So I think the myth that phytic acid means plants don't give you nutrients is definitely busted here.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 51:47

Which obviously makes sense, right?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 51:49

Right. There are people who have been vegan for decades and decades and decades, and they're still alive. If you weren't getting iron and zinc, you wouldn't last that long. No.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 51:58

Go look at the veganathletes.com page. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, there are people thriving on a vegan diet.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 52:03

Great vegan athletes.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 52:04

Oh, yeah. That's what it is. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 52:06

But yeah, so.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 52:07

I'd call that debunked.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 52:08

Yeah, for sure. All right. I think that is pretty much it for this week. I appreciate you guys listening. If you could rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, that helps us out a lot. We appreciate the people who've done that. And also, if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube, you can drop us a comment. We love seeing those. And then we also have in the show notes our Deficient Vegans Discord, where we talk about all kinds of things. So come in there and chat with us and hang out.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 52:32

Lots of nice people.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 52:33

Yeah, talk about fitness, talk about food, talk about just like vegan stuff in general. Yeah, good time. All right, I think that's it. Do you want to say bye? Bye. Bye, everybody.