Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:00

Welcome to the Deficient Vegans Podcast. This is episode 41. I'm the muscle deficient vegan here with the protein deficient vegan. Do you want to say hi?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:06

Hi!

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:07

Hi, everybody. So this week, we're going to talk about the right protein goal for you and also discuss our myth of the week, which is that veganism is not political.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:16

Hmm.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:16

Hmm. But first up, new news.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:19

New news!

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:20

So there's a company called Upcycled Plant Power that is turning unused broccoli stems or stalks into ingredients for protein, fiber, and a bunch of other like nutritious ingredients that people can use in food.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:34

That's exciting. I love broccoli stems.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:36

Yeah? Is that your favorite part of the broccoli? It is.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:38

Most people like the floret.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:42

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 0:42

I like the broccoli stem. Cooked, obviously.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 0:46

Right. So they have a machine that goes out into the farm fields and it picks up like the rest of the stem or the stalk that was in the ground that was not harvested for like normal broccoli product, which is apparently what they're picking up is like 70 to 80 percent of the actual plant.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:00

That's crazy.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:01

So there's a whole bunch of your favorite stem underground you've never even tried.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:04

They should just ship it to me.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:05

Yeah. Always like these like up cycle things where we're taking the waste and turning it into useful things. We're going through the trouble to use all this field for the crops and do everything we need to do to build crops. We might as well use as much of the plant as possible.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 1:16

We have the technology.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 1:18

Right. Um, next up. So we talked last week about that new vegan egg white powder. Uh, and the company that makes that is called healthier comforts. Well, the co-founder of healthier comforts was on Reddit, uh, this past week doing an AMA, which is an ask me anything, which if you're not familiar with that format is basically they go on Reddit and they make a post. They're like, Hey, I'm here for an hour. Ask me anything. And they'll answer a bunch of questions. So there were a lot of things that people asked in there. Uh, some of the highlights I had are that they are hoping to expand internationally, even though they are U.S. only for now. They have to kind of navigate the regulations in different countries around new food technology. So that's kind of the holdup at the moment. Also, they don't have any plans for a yolk version. I didn't even think about this, but apparently this was the most popular question in the AMA.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:04

Yeah, I don't, I mean, I know there are things you can do with just the yolk, but I don't know why you'd want just the yolk over like just an egg powder in general that you could use for normal baking. You know what I mean right because like most recipes call for eggs not egg yolk or egg white so like i feel like egg just egg powder would be more functional right

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:26

More something just like just egg yeah that's basically a whole.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:30

Egg but you can already do that if you buy just eggs protein powder so

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:33

Exactly so yeah he said he thinks it's technically possible but no plans for that they're focusing on the egg whites really.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 2:39

Which makes sense because like protein is kind of a hot topic still Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 2:44

Plus nobody's doing egg whites. So they're in their own space right now. They are launching a larger size of the bag soon. So it'll be a little better price per quantity of product you get. And then also speaking of sizes, they're working on sample sizes. So you can try just a little bit. And they're also working on mixes like cake mixes to launch later this year. Somebody specifically requested angel food cake, and he said that's on the plan.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:07

Or you could just buy the bag of dried egg whites and make your own angel food cake because there's lots of recipes.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:12

Yeah, with pretty much any recipe that already exists. Yeah. I guess people really like the pre-mixed cake boxes or whatever.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:20

Hmm.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:21

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:21

I don't know. They're not like a cake-making company, so how good would those be? Yeah. I think that's like the real question.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:28

They're going to be vegan Betty Crocker.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:30

Yeah. I mean, that's like not their... My concern with that is, like, that isn't their focus. Their focus is, like, the, you know, fermentation, blah, blah, blah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:39

Precision fermentation. There you go. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:41

So, like, are they even going to have good cakes? My gut feeling is no.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 3:46

We'll see. Maybe we'll try them. Maybe we won't. Yeah. We have a whole cabinet full of the dry powders that would be in a cake mix.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 3:53

So there's not much reason for us to do it. I guess, yeah. So, how do you feel about the vegan egg whites when we tried them?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:00

Yeah, I think they were egg whites. I mean, they were, they were really similar to egg whites. Yeah. A really neutral flavor.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:05

I feel like they were really chalky though. Oh, it wasn't. Like, I, I feel like, um, we stirred for a long time and couldn't really get it like fully incorporated in the water and maybe it's different for baking, but like we tried to make an omelet and it was kind of.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:16

Yeah. And I think I had mentioned that originally, I probably wouldn't use this to like fry up as an egg and like an omelet or a ricotta or something like that. I would just use it in the baking because if you're going to do. I mean, first of all, if you're going to do something like eggy, I just like scrambled tofu.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:31

But also we have more digested egg.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:33

Yeah. I mean, I think those are definitely better for like making egg stuff in a pan. Right. Than the egg white powder is. And it did have like a little chalky residue that it left in my mouth a little bit. But I was never really a big fan of egg whites specifically, even when I was eating eggs.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 4:47

Yeah. I kind of feel like it is more in the baking space. Yeah. Which does serve like some functions,

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 4:51

But. Yeah. And I guess, oh, also one more thing that was in the AMA. somebody mentioned that they only have like some of the protein that's typically found in an egg white and he replied yes basically that is only like half the protein in our typical egg white but it does do the majority of the work for like whipping and baking needs which is really their focus so that may be why white tastes different that's really interesting yeah yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:16

Maybe that's why it tasted like a little off and the texture was a little

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 5:19

Off yeah then.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:21

Can you even call that vegan egg whites

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 5:22

Well yeah you should know that their focus is basically entirely on use this in your baking recipes yeah although he did highlight a frittata somebody yeah whatever do whatever you want with it right i.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:33

Don't know the question i saw was are you vegan and they are not vegan if that was something that you were were wondering so like it's interesting if you think it's like a new vegan startup company it's not yeah they have a vegan product but they are not vegan and are not morally aligned with veganism. Take that for what you want.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 5:50

Yeah, see, sometimes that comes up later when you start. Yes.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 5:54

Yeah. Just don't want you to get your hopes up. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 5:57

Um, next, the USDA, which is the Department of Agriculture in the United States, is proposing a new policy to speed up slaughterhouse line speeds.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 6:08

Wow, what could go wrong? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 6:11

Um, they currently have regulated caps on most animals. Like, you can do this many chickens per minute, this many whatever per minute. But they're going to raise the cap slightly on some of those. And then I guess with pigs, they're just proposing to remove the cap. I don't really know enough about that industry to know what the differences are. But the big issue is they're also proposing to end the requirement for annual reports for worker safety. So the increased line speeds are expected to, like, increase injury rates for the workers, increase the danger of the job, and then obviously, I'm sure, increase the sloppiness of slaughtering the animals.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 6:45

Where the hell is OSHA in this?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 6:47

Yeah, I don't know how OSHA incorporates into this.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 6:50

Yeah. Like, does OSHA oversee this stuff? Because I know OSHA is like highly regulating the places that I've worked before.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 6:57

Yeah. That's a good question. I don't know how OSHA interacts with USDA. I'm not sure. I've never worked anywhere with OSHA.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:03

But yeah, I always think the the line of like Republicans or the the leaders of the people, the blue collar. No, they're fucking not. They're constantly stripping back regulations that make workers safe. So this is just another example of that. But the sad part is, well, it's sad in a lot of ways, right? Because I'm sure most people that work at a slaughterhouse don't really want to be working at a slaughterhouse. That's good money.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:28

The article said it was a significant number of immigrants, by the way. And I think it was like half a million people work at the slaughterhouses combined. So it's a lot of people.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 7:35

Yeah, I have heard it's a lot of immigrants. But yeah, they're going to get more injured on the job. But like you said, it's also going to result in sloppier kills. It's going to result in more trauma and injuries and horrific things for the actual animals.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 7:52

Yeah. And currently, this is a proposal. I don't know what it takes to pass this kind of thing for the USDA, but we'll see. Yeah. Last but not least, the company Beyond Meat, which you may know for their meat alternatives, is changing their name to just Beyond.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:06

Interesting. I think, like, if I were named Beyond Meat and I were changing my name, I would do To Infinity and Beyond.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:13

I like that. We'll have to send that to them and see if they pick up.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:15

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:16

The little cow in a cape on threads would probably like it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:18

I think you would,

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:18

Too. Yeah. So they just started coming out with a line of protein drinks and stuff. So I guess they're trying to, you know, create new products and they think maybe Beyond Meat doesn't make sense for some of those products. But I saw a little quip on threads that is like, oh, it sounds like they're finally going Beyond Meat.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:34

Yeah. So maybe the name is actually better. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:37

So, yeah. Mixed feelings, mixed responses on the interwebs.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:42

It makes me nervous that they're dropping the meat. Are they going to stop making the meat products?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:48

Yeah. I'm not sure.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:49

Because I did see an article where he said something about, like, now is not the time for plant-based meats. And I don't know what the hell that means.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:55

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 8:57

Yeah. Because we like your meats. Right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 8:59

And they do have, they have their Beyond Test Kitchen, which is kind of like new products. And we just got some of their new meat products from there. So they are still working on new products. But who knows what the future holds.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:08

Yeah. We finally got our hands on the new recipe for their Beyond Grounds.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:14

Yeah. It's like four ingredients, mung bean, super high protein.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:18

Is it mung bean or fava bean?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:20

It's like four ingredients, maybe fava bean, a super high protein.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:26

Yeah, I think it's like 80-ish percent protein. I could be wrong on that. Yeah. We haven't used it yet, but also we got like a mixed pack. So it was like a 12 pack and it came with four of the ground beefs, four chicken things.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:40

Yeah, and four steak fillets.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 9:42

Yeah, which you'll be eating those because the steak texture really disgusts me. but they came with like free like spice blends too which we'll try to use

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 9:52

Those yeah it was a cool touch it kind of came with a little card that showed four of their I guess in-house chefs and like the spice blend that they made to use with the meat yeah it's cool they want you to pick and like give your feedback on which one you like the best so it's interesting their test kitchen stuff has some cool stuff sometimes oh.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:06

Yeah their test kitchen is I think cooler than their normal kitchen

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:10

Yeah I mean I definitely like things that I've gotten from there more than the stuff I get at the store most of the time Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:15

It's interesting. It's a cool concept.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:18

Yeah. So that's the news for the week. Let's go ahead and get into the main segment here. So let's talk about how to determine a protein goal for you specifically.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:26

Me?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:27

No, you, the listener. Everybody, individually. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:32

He was looking at me, though.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:37

All right. So your personal protein goal, or whether or not it even makes sense for you to have a protein goal.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:43

He's still looking at me.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 10:44

Should be determined by some things that are specific to you. Um, so some of those things are like goals, your activities, your age, your weight, and your dietary restrictions, especially since we're vegans, you know.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 10:58

What kind of activities? I like to knit.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:01

Knitting probably wouldn't factor into the protein too much. Okay. Although you do have some muscles in your hands. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting, interesting. You get really jacked hands from knitting. Got to go tell the ladies at the knitting store. Yeah. All the secrets. Okay, so before we get into how your specific protein target might work, let's talk about four general levels of protein targets. We'll go through some examples here, and we'll use the example of either a currently 150-pound person or a person that's like over 200 pounds and trying to get down to 150 pounds.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:32

Is the 150-pound person like already where they want to be?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:37

Yeah, so this is a 150-pound person. I think generally around 20% body fat is where most of the numbers are originated from.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:44

Interesting. So, men. Right. Okay.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:47

Probably in a lot of cases, but yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:50

White men of a certain build and stature.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 11:52

But there is no difference in the recommendations for men and women. But yes, I will acknowledge that most of the studies were probably done on men.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 11:59

As are all studies.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:02

Yeah. So, kind of the minimal protein target would be the recommended daily allowance from the National Institute for Health, which is 0.8 grams per kilogram or 0.36 grams per pound. And again, if you're already somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% body fat, you can use your total body weight, your current body weight. But if you're, you know, in a deficit trying to lose weight, I would recommend either using your goal weight or if you happen to have an accurate measurement of your body fat percentage, you can use your lean body mass.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:32

Okay. So in this case, we're going to use 150 pounds.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:35

Right. For both. For all these, we're going to say, this is what it should be for 150 pounds.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:40

Whether your goal is 150 pounds or you are 150 pounds at around 20% body fat. Right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:45

Okay. So, for that RDA, that would be around 54 grams of protein a day for this person. That's easy. Yeah. You'd probably get it on accident without even really thinking about it.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 12:55

This is one you could get with beans and rice.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 12:57

Yeah, definitely. Especially if you're not in a calorie deficit. Yeah, for sure. And then the next level is what I'm kind of calling moderate. So, this is 1.2 grams per kilogram or 0.54 grams per pound. And so, for a 150-pound person, this would be 81 grams of protein a day.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:13

It's not bad either.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:13

Yeah. You have to think about it a little more probably. You have to eat something, at least one thing a day that's pretty protein heavy, I think.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:19

I guess it really depends on how many calories you have,

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:21

Right? Yeah, definitely.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:22

If you're in a deficit, 81 can start getting kind of hard.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 13:25

Yeah. The next level is kind of where we see the optimal line is about 1.6 grams per kilogram or 0.72 grams per pound. So this is, you know, there may be some more benefits above this level, but this is where most people are recommended now to try to just reach this level and don't stretch too much higher, especially if it makes your diet kind of hard to maintain and things like that. This is where you need to get to to get most of the benefits of protein for muscle gain. So with this 150 pound person, that'd be 108 grams of protein a day.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 13:58

Okay, that's not that bad either.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 14:00

Yeah, right.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 14:00

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 14:02

And then kind of the maximal, is what I'm calling it, although that's not technically true. There's probably a little more above this even. But the maximal level would be 2.2 grams per kilogram or kind of what you've probably heard for a long time, a gram per pound of body weight. For the 150-pound person, this would be 150 grams of protein. And there are a couple situations where you might want to get up this high that we'll talk about here in a little bit. But this is just kind of a level where you're like, okay, I don't ever want to think that the reason I'm not getting my progress is because I didn't have enough protein. You just go, okay, one gram a pound, fine.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 14:35

To address the elephant in the room, what is the number in which a lot of people are saying protein bad and it will kill you soon?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 14:45

I would love to know that. I think it's just any protein.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 14:48

Because I keep seeing stuff of like it destroys your kidneys or something.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 14:52

Yeah, so there's no actual evidence that protein is bad for healthy kidneys. If you have kidney disease, they will limit your protein. But if you have healthy kidneys, there's never been any evidence that that is bad for your kidneys.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 15:07

There's a lot of misinformation spreading, especially in the vegan space. Because instead of saying we can get protein as vegans, like I'm seeing a lot of... a propaganda around, we don't need protein. And in fact, protein is really bad for you.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 15:22

Yeah. So I think the best way to frame that is, and some of these things I'm going to cover here in a little bit, but if you're not doing resistance training, if you're not working out, it's probably not worth it to you to eat a lot of extra protein because you can have some protein and help with muscle. So your muscles are always kind of constantly in a state of both growing muscle and breaking down muscle. So more protein can help that balance be towards growing muscle a little more or at least kind of making it equal to where you're breaking down just as much as you're growing.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 15:52

Especially while you age, right? Right.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 15:54

And working out helps that protein go to the right places. So, the issues with kind of eating protein and it being bad for you are kind of theoretical things that the same things that cause muscle to grow from protein are the same things that would like cause cancer to grow or some of those other issues. So if you're eating, maybe if you're eating like 250 grams of protein a day and you were never working out, so that protein doesn't really go to the muscle growth so much. Yeah. And then maybe it could go towards more technically harmful processes in the body or something like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:28

Theoretically.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:28

Theoretically. But also somebody who's eating 250 grams of protein a day is probably working out because who would do that?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 16:35

Yeah. I mean, like 250 grams a day is a hard thing to do unless you're doing it very intentionally. Yeah. And why would you be doing it so intentionally if you weren't planning on using it?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 16:44

Yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, there's a lot of things where the balance is kind of between what's the optimal thing for longevity versus the optimal thing for fitness and functional health and things like that. So I think this falls in the ballpark. I think if you're not working out ever, then it's probably not worth it to you to even think about your protein and just get what you get.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:04

As long as it's above the minimal.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody needs the RDA, right? But you'll probably get that on accident.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:10

I've been seeing people saying they get like 30 or 40 grams a day, which...

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:13

I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you never even eat beans or anything, then maybe. Yeah. But at the very minimum, everybody, no matter what, should get the RDA.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:23

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:23

Yeah. So as far as how you would place yourself into these protein target categories, I have three kind of, I guess, lifestyle categories that might match up to them. So you might be in a category where you don't really have a protein goal. You're just, other than hitting the RDA, because everybody should do that for medical reasons. So some of the things that might put you into this category are you don't exercise, you don't care, you're just kind of vibing with life. This isn't something you want to think about. Then you would just hit the RDA. Fair. Like any other food or vitamin, right?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 17:52

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 17:53

You have no interest in muscle growth or performance. So that's what I was saying before. Like you're not going to eat a lot of protein if you don't care about that. Right. And even if you're not focusing on your protein and you're working out, but you don't really care about your performance necessarily, you'll still grow a little muscle. Also, if you just want to be generally healthy, you don't have any specific fitness goals, it's probably not worth thinking about protein. Just make sure you hit the RDA. You just want to get the bare minimum to not get sick. That's what the RDA is made for. You're already in a calorie surplus. So this one's interesting. This is not because you don't need the protein, but it's because if you're in a surplus, you're probably already getting like the moderate level of protein without even trying.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:30

Depending on what you're eating, though.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:31

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:32

If you were like a junk food vegan, maybe not.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:35

Maybe not, right. But where I was thinking with this is you'll see actually a lot of vegan athletes and stuff online that are pretty muscular. And they say, I don't track my food. I never really think about my protein.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 18:46

Because they have 4,000 calories. Exactly.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 18:47

That's exactly it. They're eating like 4,000 calories a day. So if you're like an athlete and a calorie surplus, you're going to have a hard time not getting the protein. Yeah. So it's probably not something you actually need to track and think about just because you're doing it naturally. So, and then the last one is if you're not interested in tracking food, like a lot of people just don't want to track their food in an app. And in that case, you shouldn't have a protein goal because you're not going to be able to track it anyway.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:10

That's a great point. If you're not going to measure it, why would you have a goal?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:13

Right.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:15

How would you even know if you met your goal? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:17

So I think if you fit into any of those categories, you're probably good to just make sure you're getting the RDA and not really think about it too much.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:22

So if you're like someone that's not interested in tracking and you just went vegan, though, I think you should probably track for a little bit to understand how to get the minimal protein, even if you don't care about protein.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 19:33

And all your other nutrients. Yeah, absolutely. I'd recommend for a new vegan, I'd almost always recommend chronometer just for maybe a month or so to track your food to understand what things you might be falling short in. And I mean, when I say short, I mean like medically short. It might cause problems. So that would probably be a good idea.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 19:48

Yeah. I think. also you're eating a lot of different foods that you don't you don't really have the same like vibe check as you do for like things that you grew up eating or that you just were eating now you're eating stuff that you don't even really understand the macros or like yeah like vegan cheese is one i always go back to because it's like normal cheese is like i don't know 35 40 percent protein or something yeah which you don't even think about that as an omnivore that that's like a good protein source quote unquote good yeah um but then like you look at vegan cheese And you're probably thinking, oh, it's like I'm using it the same way. Surely it's a direct replacement for nutrition, too. And it's not because it's like oil based.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:27

Yeah. For better or worse, things like cheese and eggs are nutrient dense, which doesn't necessarily mean they're health foods. It just means that if you're eating cheese and eggs, you can get away with more junk food throughout the day, maybe. Because you get your actual nutrients you need to be medically OK from that little dose of egg, basically, or something like that. So, if you, like, go to switch to vegan cheeses or something like— Or.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 20:51

Like, just egg.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 20:52

Just egg or something like that, it might not have all those same nutrients. And if you're still eating, like, a bunch of junk food alongside that, you might just be missing some of the nutrients you had before.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:00

Yeah. I personally think it's not that hard to get protein deficient if you're not thinking about protein at all.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:07

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:07

And if you're just, like, subbing in things— like direct substitutions for things you used to eat and everything is lower in protein than what you're used to like i know i know we talk a lot about like it's very hard to become protein deficient but i don't necessarily think that's true yeah i think it's just like if you are protein deficient are you actually going to the doctor for this yeah like you wouldn't even i think go to the doctor until you had been protein deficient for a while right and

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 21:33

It really depends on the i guess the quality of your food like if you're mostly eating whole foods you probably They have a hard time being protein deficient. But if you really rely on like box foods and crackers and eating out and eating out. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 21:45

If you're eating out at restaurants, like a lot of restaurants barely have any protein on the menu. I actually don't think it'd be that hard to be protein deficient as a junk food vegan. Yeah. I know we like to say it's impossible. Right. But like it realistically, it is not impossible to be low in protein. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:01

And there are any diet. There are definitely studies that say like, you know, the percentage of vegans that are protein deficient is higher than the percentage. of non-vegans that are protein deficient. So, I mean, it is a real thing, but for most of the people who are like cooking at home or eating whole foods, they probably don't run into that so much.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:17

I also think like once you're past the beginner phase, it becomes less of a worry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I do, I personally think very strongly that you should be looking into this if you're just going vegan. Like you need to know what your protein sources are.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 22:29

I agree.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 22:29

Mostly because like, I don't know, when I was a vegetarian, I ate a lot, like a lot of my protein really was coming from like eggs and cheese, which is stupid, but like those aren't like the best like most nutritional things to be eating but like that's just what i grew up knowing is like the only vegetarian in the family um so like when i went vegan i really was like i don't even know what i would eat like the only thing i knew of was was tofu you know and then i've like discovered the other protein sources along the way but like yeah it was a it was a bit of a shock yeah

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 23:01

Definitely worth tracking for a little while.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 23:03

Yeah

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 23:04

So the next category is kind of the type of person that might fit into the moderate protein goal. So this was the 1.2 grams per kilogram or about 0.54 grams per pound. And this is so you do exercise, but you don't necessarily lift weights. So maybe you're like a runner or a cyclist or you're doing yoga or something like that, where you're interested in keeping your body functional and fit, but you're not actually like literally trying to grow muscle necessarily. Yeah. Also, maybe you exercise and you do lift, but you're not really concerned with optimizing progress. You're just like, I get what I get. I just come in here because I like it or it makes me feel good or whatever. You can maybe hit the moderate protein goal, but you don't have to really reach to get the extra benefit. Um, also if you're somebody that's getting older and worried about sarcopenia, which is losing muscle with age, even if you're not necessarily exercising, you probably, uh, the recommendation nowadays is to aim for this 1.2 grams per kilogram just to help create more of a gap in that balance between the muscle breakdown and the muscle synthesis to try to maintain some of that muscle mass as you get older. Also, another one is if you are dieting or cutting calories. So if you're in a calorie deficit, you might aim for at least a moderate to make sure you're getting in the extra protein. Because when you're losing weight, you are losing more muscle mass. So adding more protein will kind of help keep some of the muscle mass as you go down. And then also, if you're recovering from an injury or surgery, and this one is kind of a short-term thing. Like you just had a surgery, you maybe bump up your protein a little bit just to help you recover and help it kind of build back the muscles and stuff that were affected. And then for the people who might fit into the optimal protein goal or the high protein goal of 1.6 grams per kilogram or 0.72 grams per pound are like bodybuilders, obviously, professional athletes, somebody who's seriously training for a sport. That's probably a good target for you to try to hit. And this is a bodybuilder who's not using steroids. If you're using steroids, we're kind of in a different realm, and you probably need a lot more protein for other reasons, but, you know, we won't get into that today. Somebody who's using a weight loss drug, like Ozempic or some of the other GLP-1 drugs or Trisepatide or something like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 25:10

To keep from losing muscle mass.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:11

Yeah, keep from losing muscle mass. And the reason for that is it's not really like the drug makes you lose muscle. It's just the drug makes you lose weight really quickly in a lot of cases, and that will cause you to also burn muscle off.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 25:21

Yeah, I think this is actually really interesting because I see a lot of people being like, Ozempic causes muscle loss, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, it's just really quick weight loss.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:31

Yeah, it's just a big deficit.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 25:32

It's not like a specific thing from the drug, right?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:34

Yeah, it would be basically the same result if you lost that weight at that same rate without Ozempic because you were able to create a calorie deficit that big. But most people can't because they get hungry, which is what the drug addresses.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 25:45

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 25:46

Yeah. So that's actually why a lot of this stuff in the market now is getting protein added to it is because a lot of actually the food companies are changing the products they put out around this kind of GLP one drug culture. Like you'll see a lot of snack companies talking about they're selling less snacks. People want more protein food because people are picking up on the fact that, yeah, this is making me lose weight and that's great, but I'm shedding a lot of muscle mass. So now the recommendation is like, if you're on this kind of drug, you're in the gym, you're lifting weights, you're hitting your protein goal, you're doing everything right so that you can keep as much of your muscle as possible as you're losing that weight pretty quickly. Another one is if you're trying to hit a specific physique goal. So if you want to be like lean or shredded or like bulky big, like you, I think one of the things I used to say is like, you want to look like you fight a bear on a mountain or something like that. Then you probably want to aim for this optimal protein goal to make sure you're building that muscle. And then if you're trying to reverse muscle loss after more of a long-term injury or an illness or an extended activity, you might want to do that. Like, you know, shattered my elbow. Yeah. That was like a couple months in a basically immobilized cast. So trying to build that back.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 26:49

But now it's fully functional.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 26:50

It's fully functional. Thanks, protein. It's not quite as strong as it was before. But, yeah, the protein helps a lot. Definitely with trying to catch it back up to where it was and rebuild everything in there that needs to be restructured, I guess. And then the last one is just if you're in the gym a lot and you want to make the most of all that time you spend in the gym because you're in the gym for maybe, depending on the person, somewhere between two to 10 hours a week, I guess. Yeah. So.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 27:13

Make it count.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 27:14

You make it count. Yeah. You'll make a little more out of that gym time if you just increase your protein intake. So if that just means drink an extra protein shake a day and maybe you get better progress, that's a pretty good tradeoff for most people. So. Another good reason to aim for that optimal range. And then for kind of the maximal range of like 2.2 grams per kilogram, one gram per pound, some of the things that might make you need a little extra protein where you end up closer to that range are one, if you're a vegan. So if you're a vegan, you might potentially add 10 to 15% protein over what you would normally have as a non-vegan in the same situation for a daily protein target. A couple of other things that contribute to this are the amino acids in our protein. So specifically leucine in a lot of cases, the leucine content is usually lower. The other amino acid contents are lower. So the main thing that increasing the total daily protein does is to make sure that each meal has enough protein to hit what they call the leucine trigger. So you need like three grams of leucine, which is one of the amino acids in protein, to kind of trigger a round of muscle protein synthesis for the day.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 28:19

Or you could eat soy. Just soy.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:22

You could eat soy.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 28:24

Does taking like EAAs help with this? Yeah, it does.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:27

EAAs are actually great for this because actually a lot of doses of EAAs will have three grams of leucine on its own. So if you were like to have a meal and then you just had EAAs alongside it, you would basically guarantee that you'd have a leucine spike.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 28:40

Yeah, like if you were eating seitan as your main protein source and then you also drink some EAAs.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:45

And I probably would, if I was eating seitan a lot, I would probably start drinking EAs with several of those meals. If this is something I cared about.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 28:52

Right? Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 28:54

So, yeah, 10 to 15%. Also, digestibility for whole food vegan proteins is basically harder to get the protein out of the food than it is for animal products. So, this is another reason why a vegan might just add, you know, 10 to 15% protein. So, that would probably bump you up closer to that gram per pound range in most cases. If you were trying to be super optimal and you were a vegan. um another one is for anybody that's like over about 50 years old definitely if you're over 60 years old you start running into more anabolic resistance which is just it's harder to build muscle that's all that means um so more protein will basically make those less sensitive muscle growth mechanisms work about the same as they did before in a lot of cases so this is another one you might add 10 to 15 percent protein again and then if you're losing weight in a deficit you might also add like 10 percent protein and there are a lot of really technical reasons for this but basically the protein you are eating is kind of spread thin for all the other things the body needs to use protein for so some of it may not make it to the muscles like it would if you were in a maintenance or surplus.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:01

Okay, so the 10% to 15% protein we're talking about, is that on top of the minimum or is that on top of whichever tier you land in?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:08

That would be on top of whichever tier you would land in normally. So if you're trying to hit the optimal tier of like 1.6 grams per kilogram, but you were also a vegan, then you would add like 10% to 15% on top of whatever that would have been. So for the 150-pound person, they were at 108 grams for an optimal.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:24

Maybe like 120?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:25

Yeah, if they were also a vegan, maybe you'd go for 120.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:27

Okay.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 30:28

And then also these things kind of, you know, stack up together. So if you're a 60 year old vegan that's trying to lose weight, you might end up cranking the protein up maybe even over a gram per pound.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 30:40

So i think this ends up to me in an interesting conversation because like okay so like you're already in a deficit right yeah even if you want to be and i think this is more of like quality of life and mental health right of like if you want to be an optimal but that's going to require you to be like 45 of all your calories are coming from protein like you might have to be okay with being in that moderate level yeah definitely until you get down to where you have more calories. Yeah, yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 31:10

And one thing you should know is that like the, it's not an on-off switch for protein. So like you're going to gain muscle at pretty much any protein above like that 1.2 grams per kilogram. So, I mean, any more you add will give you more benefit, but you're going to gain muscle at any of those. So if you want to add more, if it's worth it to you to change the diet, to add more protein, to gain more muscle, then do it. But if it's going to totally screw up your diet, you're still going to make gains. It just might not be quite as fast. It's not like night and day.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 31:41

This is like optimizing. Right. I guess I would just throw that out there because... I've seen a lot of people where it's like, okay, I've got to get like 40% protein on a calorie basis a day. And it's like you're eating a bunch of foods that make you really unhappy. You're mostly drinking shakes. You get tired of that. And then you fall off your calorie plan where it's like maybe if you would have went down to 30% protein, you could have actually stuck with that. And you would see results faster just because you could stick with it.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:08

And that would be a way better plan. I know we've mentioned it basically every time we've talked about something like this on the podcast. But the best plan is the one you're going to stick to. Yeah. So if going, you know, for a higher protein target throws everything out of whack and you end up just like saying, no, screw this. And you have a whole off week and like things like that. And that keeps happening. That's a bad plan. But like you were saying, if you could do like 30% of your calories come from protein and that's super sustainable and it never stresses you out and you do it every week for a year. Yeah. That's the better plan.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 32:34

Yeah, exactly. It's like if optimal is 130 grams, but I, what I can actually consistently do is a hundred grams. Yeah. And I still get my minimum and I'm still making progress in the gym. Like, I'm going to go with 100. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 32:46

And that's still optimal for you because behaviorally, I mean, behavior is like the most important thing, really. This is just the numbers I'm talking about here are like muscle growing in a lab based on these protein numbers. Right. But as far as like replying it to your real life, the behavioral stuff is the most important. Whatever is going to make you consistent.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:04

Yeah. You got to add in the human factor. And like be honest about it when you're looking at these. Like, what can you actually commit to? And, like, I don't know, the thing I like to do is... I use my fitness pal, so I'll just, like, throw up empty days, like, not today because I'm tracking today, but, like, a couple days in advance, like, and this is how I do meal planning, too. But I'll, like, throw in what I think I'm going to be eating those days and, like, see realistically, like, how many grams can I actually get with the calories I have. Right. And then, like, if you're, like, really close to, like, going a little bit up and you feel like you can, like, swap a couple things out to get better, then do that. But it's got to be something you're going to do.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 33:39

Yeah, definitely.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:39

And I think that, you know, I think bodybuilders and professional athletes, they're taking it, like, so much more seriously because they're, like, competing and stuff. So, you know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 33:50

They're willing to be miserable.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 33:51

They're going to raw dog protein powder if they have to. They don't give a shit. Yeah. But, like, if you're just, like, a casual gym goer that just wants to get stronger, I mean, yeah, maybe don't make yourself miserable. Yeah. Absolutely. That's my opinion. I agree.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:07

Yeah. So those are some of the things that might determine where you fall in the protein target brackets. But again, like we just said, that's all very fluid. And kind of put yourself wherever you think you're going to be most consistent. And you can get the most value while being the most consistent.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:22

Yeah. And if you have any questions on any of this, you can ask Muscle Deficient Vegan because he's a personal trainer and he loves questions.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:29

I do like questions. All right. So let's get into our myth of the week this week. So the myth of the week this week is that veganism is not political.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 34:38

I've been seeing this all over my threads, and I want to throw my phone against a wall. I don't know how this became my algorithm. Yeah. But veganism is very political.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 34:49

Yeah. And I think the reason it's political is because in politics, you vote for elected representatives, and those elected representatives help shape the law and other frameworks that we use in day-to-day life.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 35:04

Yeah. And so I think most people would see that there's a pretty obvious overlap in liberal politics with veganism and how... a lot of those goals overlap but aside from that just like who are you voting for like that really does impact like what happens to veganism in our country like we're specifically right now talking about the u.s yeah um but for instance like this

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 35:33

Does also matter in the rest of the.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 35:34

World it does yeah i just don't know their politics so when i say left and liberal i'm like talking about the U.S. political system, right? Yeah. But like, okay, we kind of already talked about earlier about the slaughterhouses. Where is that coming from? A Republican leadership, right? Like the Republican leadership is going to push for more like animal agriculture and they're going to be more willing to give them subsidies, which is going to make like animal products cheaper and more available to people. That means people are going to choose them. That's bad for veganism. Like, what else do they typically do?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 36:10

Yeah, we have, like, some of the topics we've talked about and read about recently that are, you know, basically part of laws or policies getting put forth are, like, lab-grown meat, food in schools, the labels on food, regulations for farms, which you were kind of just talking about there, and then general stuff with food and even the environment. Like, all those things are typically regulated or have bills passed by the people that we elect. So, I mean, that is politics by definition, basically. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 36:40

And I would go so far as to say, I think if... you're a vegan and you're voting conservatively, you can be doing more for the vegan movement by changing that vote. And there are some reasons, right? Like, as you can see in different states, there are conservative lawmakers that are trying to outlaw the use of meat for plant-based meats. They're trying to make it so that you can't use the word milk for plant-based milk. That makes it less likely that people are going to buy those options. They're also outlawing lab-grown meat options which definitely inhibits the growth of the vegan movement right and then you know kind of like the regulations on farms that we're talking about that's being passed by republicans yeah you know and like if you look at the left side um they tend to push for like more plant-based protein options and stuff in schools or plant-based milk options like we had on switch for good that's being pushed by democrats yeah

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 37:37

I think it's hard to understand a lot of the times how things like this end up getting split left to right. But the reality is that a lot of them are.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 37:44

Oh, yeah, they definitely are. And like the left tends to push for more regulations on various sectors. Yeah. You know, like from an environmental standpoint, from a safety standpoint. Also, the Republican side tends to hide these health studies from us that show that like a plant based diet might be healthy. If you look out at the food pyramid they put out, the very first page, the pyramid that they're showing people, knowing that they're not going to dig into the facts and details, is a very highly meat and dairy propagandized material. And then you go and you look at the details of it and it's like, but it also talks about like plant protein.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 38:22

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 38:24

So politics definitely matter where veganism is concerned. Yeah. If you care about veganism, you should be choosing your politicians properly and you should be voting. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 38:33

You can vote for candidates who move animal welfare stuff forward, or at the very least, they aren't holding it back, like by doing things with messing with the labels or why are we outlawing lab-grown meat when it's just like that. And not only from the veganism perspective, why are we limiting a new technology that can provide food in general?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 38:55

Because of capitalism, right? Sure.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 38:58

Yeah. So I would say the myth that veganism is not political is definitely not true.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:04

And if you think it is, you need to dig more into it.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:06

All right. What updates do you have in protein deficient vegan land this week?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:10

Okay. Well, I finally put out my high protein cinnamon roll recipe that's made with vital wheat gluten. Uh, so go check that out.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:18

Those are amazing.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:20

They're really good.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:21

Man, I feel like I picked one up and I went to take a bite of it and I just like inhaled, I guess, before I took a bite. And it was like, I was already drooling by the time I went to take the bite because they smelled so good.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:34

That one took a while to make because I did like four iterations of the recipe to get it where I think it's like, I think it's like pretty perfect. Yeah. I will say, because it has more than 50% vital wheat gluten to flour, it is a little chewier than a normal cinnamon roll. But I don't think it's that noticeable to you.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:51

No, definitely not. It doesn't really seem much different than a normal old cinnamon roll to me. So, yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 39:56

Check it out. If you try it, let me know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 39:59

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:01

Also, Beyond sent us some of the new protein drinks, because we kind of talked about it earlier, about Beyond changing their name from Beyond Meats to Beyond. They have clear protein drinks. So we tried a few of their new flavors that are just coming out. What were they? Cucumber, grapefruit.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:18

Cherry berry.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:19

Cherry berry, yeah. Pina colada.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:21

Pina colada, yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:23

So what do you think?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 40:25

I like the cherry berry and the 10 gram of protein. So they have two different variants for each flavor. They have a 10 gram of protein and a 20 gram of protein. The 20 gram of protein flavor seems like way more intense to where the cherry berry was almost like, Like a medicinal type taste, but the 10 gram was a little more mild and it actually tasted really good. I like them. Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 40:45

And I guess that makes sense too, right? Because it's like the flavor is being used to cover up the protein flavor. Yeah. So yeah, the 20 gram ones are going to have a stronger flavor because they're in the same amount of water. Yeah. So that's just how that works. Yeah. But we initially bought like tangerine or something in the 20 grams.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:06

Yeah, the orange tangerine.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:07

We hated those.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:08

Yeah, the orange tangerine I didn't like very much at all.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:10

They might taste good watered down, though, because that's basically what I found with the 10 grams is, like, I can drink them and they're not... I mean, yeah, they're really good over some ice, but I think you could probably like add cold water to the 20 gram ones and get them to the same flavors. The tens, I think so. I like the pina colada flavor the best.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 41:29

Yeah. And then, oh, there was a grapefruit one, too.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 41:31

Yeah. The cucumber grapefruit was actually pretty good, too. Also, if you tried the 20 gram ones and didn't like the texture because there is kind of like a slimy, I don't want to say snotty, but I'm going to say snotty. It's the protein. The texture to it, it's, yeah, it's the protein. It's got to have a texture, right? Because you have 20 grams of protein in this little can. Yeah. The 10 grams are significantly better on the texture front, but it's got half the protein in the can, the same size. So if you have problems with texture and flavor, you probably want to hit up the 10 grams.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:02

And I think they must know this, and that's why they made two different versions. To see what people. Because when I first saw them listed, I was like, why do we have a 10 gram version and a 20 gram version of the same flavor? Like, who's going to want less protein? But yeah, no, it makes sense because they are quite a bit different in the flavor and texture department.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:19

Now, if you want to get your money worth, maybe you buy the 20 grams and cut it with some water.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:25

Yeah, for half water, something like that.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:27

And then you still, it's still cheaper on a gram per dollar basis. Yeah. I don't know.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:31

Yeah.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:32

Yeah, I think they're probably a good thing on the go. I don't know that I'll, I'm not really someone who drinks protein personally. Like I kind of hate pretty much anything in liquid form that's protein. Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:44

I personally just like protein shakes more than I like the clear. So I probably wouldn't use it, especially for the price, like compared to a protein powder.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:51

Yeah.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:51

But it was, it's definitely something I would like stick in my bag if I was going to be stuck in a room all day. And I didn't want to keep a shaker cup.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 42:57

Or like you needed to pick something up from the gas station or whatever.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 42:59

Oh yeah, definitely if they were in gas stations, I'd drink them a lot on the road, I'm sure.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 43:02

Yeah. I remember before I went vegan, back when I was a vegetarian, they had something similar, but it was with whey. Yeah. And they came in like clear glass, a jar type things. Yeah. And they were really similar. So like this is definitely not like a pea protein issue, the texture and the taste thing.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 43:21

It's just how clear protein is.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 43:22

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, cool. So yeah, I think it's definitely comparable to the whey ones I've had before. What do you got going on in MDV land?

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 43:31

I'm still working on coaching the clients. That's been going really well. And then also I'm working on trying to get some newsletter stuff put together, do maybe like a little newsletter mini course deal and send out a weekly newsletter on interesting topics.

Protein Deficient Vegan: 43:45

That'll be fun. Be sure to sign up for that.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 43:47

Yeah. So thank you guys for listening. If you could give us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, that really helps us out. And you can also leave comments on Spotify and the YouTube channel. And then also we have our Discord, the Deficient Begins Discord. which is linked in the show notes. You can come in and chat with us and our 50 friends. And we also have links to our websites and Instagrams and other social medias down in the show notes if you want to get in touch or just see what we're up to. All right. I think that's it for this week. Do you want to say bye?

Protein Deficient Vegan: 44:16

Bye, guys.

Muscle Deficient Vegan: 44:16

Bye, everybody.